is it the place to learn

YOUNG_GUN

I think your both right to an extent, personally i think if your rolled to go in higher eg nl20-30 i dont think it will do you too much harm as long as you know when to drop down when you have to.

another reason i am recommending this as pod1 is a good player so i reckon he would easily be able to adjust and like he says dont really learn much at nl 4. i agree their easily beatable but myself i'd rather play sit n gos/mtt at the mo and when rolled for higher as i have played in the past i will then try to learn cash again

I think all in all their are different views here none wrong, tikay is spot on you need to start from scatch but soo many bad players does sometimes leave you scratching your head and makes it tougher

personally i'd rather play with 5 bad players, also play better with good players which is weird. problem is 5 bad players lucks going to be more of a factor

Tikay10

Morning Poddy.

Thanks for the clarification, & that makes absolute sense.

I agree with much of what you say.

I just feel that in poker, calling 2p-4p players "poor", "awful" "hopeless" etc is just so wrong.

These guys read this Forum, how do you think they must feel to be so described? And YET, those who repeatedly say that Sky Poker & myself "don't care about the low level players" have not said a dicky-bird in their defence! One Member here attacks me again & again on those grounds, but has kept totally schtum in this debate. Go figure.

Amateur footballers, weekend anglers, or Club Golfers, are not described as "awful", but low-limit poker players are. If they were that bad, we'd all sit on their tables all day nicking their money. But we can't, because they are not as bad as almost the whole of poker seem to think.

When we founded APAT, the poker world & his wife mocked it, & the players who played it, and why?, because they played at lower levels. And yet some superb players have emerged via APAT. The same myopic idiots are still mocking APAT, though, because they don't have the brain to think it through, & they want to go round, ahem, "male-hen" waving.

Institutionalised thinking ftw, the tendancy of poker players to be sheep, & unable to think for themselves, is extraordinary.

Good debate Poddy, & I wish you the very best at whatever Level you choose to play. I do agree 100%, if you want to learn to play better, more technically correct poker, then moving up the Levels is the correct way. I'd just prefer we were not quite so scathing about those at the lower levels. After all, they comprise over 90% of the total, so that's most of the poker pyramid. And I don't want to be party to being so rude about 90% of the poker population.

Take care now.

pod1

thanks tikay,andto you to my friend phil

FlashFlush

Hi Phil

I know what you were trying to say in all this, the joys of using computers, its harder to describe what your trying to say through typing than actually speaking face to face.

 Have a go on the higher tables, from experience 8nl is the same as 4nl. Only once you get to 20 and 30nl you get regular players like ozzie/dohhh/ricoramb etc who have a good grasp of the game and IMO all play below their level (Which is not a bad thing).

My advice to you would be what level of ability do you think you are? 50nl? 30nl?10nl? When you decide, play at least 1 level below that. Its better to play a table of players who are worse than you than a table of players that are of the same ability (Why do you think sparce/lolufold/weareontv never play each other.... Only the house wins)

Feel free to send me some hands if you need some help or post them in the clinic, you've sent me hans before and its a compliment that you thought of me when you needed help. I hope the advice I gave you was good and I'm more than happy to help you again if you want.

Charlie

scotty77

Small stakes is very beatable by playing a good solid ABC game.  Like TK says there is good money to be earnt from those stakes and also it is a good solid grounding to cash poker.  ABC poker will probably see you do well upto 50/100nl.

If you can't beat 4nl then I would suggest going back to the drawing board and look at your game in a totally new light.

The strangest thing I find about poker is how people 'complain' about worse players than them. Now it could just be varaince giving you a good seeing too, but if you are a loser over a decent sample size at 4nl then it says a lot more about your game than it does anyone elses.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

Small stakes is very beatable by playing a good solid ABC game.  Like TK says there is good money to be earnt from those stakes and also it is a good solid grounding to cash poker.  ABC poker will probably see you do well upto 50/100nl. If you can't beat 4nl then I would suggest going back to the drawing board and look at your game in a totally new light. The strangest thing I find about poker is how people 'complain' about worse players than them. Now it could just be varaince giving you a good seeing too, but if you are a loser over a decent sample size at 4nl then it says a lot more about your game than it does anyone elses.
Posted by scotty77

Short of complaining about how unfair it is that players can sit "away", I agree 100%, it really is THE strangest thing. I've spent more than 10 years listening to that tale & I've yet to figure out what on earth the logic is!

I'm convinced that something called "GroupThink" (google is your friend) is the reason.

pod1

thanks charle, i will do that as and when i get in a hole and need some more advice, you helped one hell of a lot in the past and i am sure you will again. scotty, like i said in previous post i was complaining about being beaten at that level, i was winning, i was just saying i wasnt LEARNING ( hence the discussion name!)

dantb10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

Tikay, "The flawed logic exists almost universally in poker, in no other game could it possibly be said that good players cannot beat bad players. I mean, think about it!" Tiger Woods won't miss 5 putts from 3 inches, Messi won't miss 5 goals from 3 yards and horses don't trip up 5 feet from the finishing line 5 races in a row, I'm no Durrr, far from it but yesterday I lost over £1,000 in pots on the river when I was so far in front on the turn it was ridiculous, try grinding that back. Thursday evening I hit 3 sets in 7 hands on one table and lost all 3 pots!! That's poker, you get outdrawn, but maybe if you played cash on the site more you'd know how hard it is to beat the game when the game keeps kicking the hell out of you, its not as simple as bad players can't beat good ones because they do all day long, skill only goes so far, luck is the very reason the fish play. You're the analyst, you're holding JJ on an AJx flop and the fish bets half his stack at you, what you doing folding? No you're shoving he's got QQ and calls because he's a fish and can't fold......... turn a Q, this afternoon on here. Bad players can't beat good ones, you're having a laugh, want any more? Back to the OP point, if you see the flop with AA and 4 others do, you're no favourite against the field, yes you have to thin the field, as I said raise and raise big at 2/4p, get the field to fold and see the flop with one or two opponents. Yes I am well aware that you have to play the low stakes differently, I can beat it. But IMO play at least 10/20 as dohhhhhh suggests or 15/30.
Posted by stien

First off, you cant miss a goal.. u can miss a chance, but if u have a goal u have already scored and thus cant miss it.

I think im right in saying you are a 50nl & 100nl player? I mean this in no way offensively, but your post above in no way indicates this.

We all know we get out draws and go through bad patches where we get stung left right and centre! Maybe its like the beach ball goal at sunderland v lpool last year, or when lampard chips the german keeper and the ball is so far over the line its untrue.

These could also be classed as bad beats. IMO its how we deal with the unfortunate circumstances that defines us as 'good players'

U say u lost 1k yest through outdraws ect... u will be well rolled for the games you play so in the long run if you are a winning player and a good player you will win regardless.

It is crazy how people always complain about bad players and always want to play better players. The logic in that is amazing to me! It blows my mind!!!

If you cannot beat the lowest level of a poker game, i wud in no way advise playing higher, and playing with better players. I am in no way suggesting op cant beat these games because i know he can, but start at the bottom and work your way up. It all adds to your experience as a player, and will help you further up the levels as you progress and come accross different situations/players/ect...

If you find bad players, keep it quiet, play them as much and as often as you can!

dantb10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : i'll pass on the donkuments but i'll look you up on the 2/4 tables when i'm drinking, i'll give you a chance.
Posted by stien

Sorry to be picky but its donkAments dude!

dantb10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

Stien obv in one hand its very easy for a fish to get lucky (or even over a few hundred hands for that matter). But when you're talking about the long term, over a very large sample size, the better players will always win against the worse players. That's undeniable. In one of your posts you said that the bad players are kept going by the suck outs they get, that is wrong. You might see them get lucky winning a few hands, but over a long period of time the only reason you'll see a continuously bad player still playing is that they are able to reload. Pod, if you can't beat 4NL (where the standard on here is obviously terrible) then you'll have no chance of winning at a higher level. If, however, its that you decide you have the bankroll and ability to start playing cash a bit higher, then just try it and see how you get on imo.
Posted by yb

Perfect post IMO

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

Small stakes is very beatable by playing a good solid ABC game.  Like TK says there is good money to be earnt from those stakes and also it is a good solid grounding to cash poker.  ABC poker will probably see you do well upto 50/100nl. If you can't beat 4nl then I would suggest going back to the drawing board and look at your game in a totally new light. The strangest thing I find about poker is how people 'complain' about worse players than them. Now it could just be varaince giving you a good seeing too, but if you are a loser over a decent sample size at 4nl then it says a lot more about your game than it does anyone elses.
Posted by scotty77

totally agree on this,solid poker by a decent player is the way to beat 2p 4p imo,maybe the biggest problem is players get impatient at "only" winning pots of 16p/20p but as tikay says,three buy-in a night =£60 a week,as for mtts being"donkaments" surly such skilled players should be able to beat 500 or so "donks"

stien

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : Perfect post IMO
Posted by dantb10

 

A revelation to me that post by YB, who'd have thought it over time...................


Thank you for pointing this out YB and Dan for adding his intellectual insight, it takes a great player to make such an insightful observation.

yb

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn :   A revelation to me that post by YB, who'd have thought it over time................... Thank you for pointing this out YB and Dan for adding his intellectual insight, it takes a great player to make such an insightful observation.
Posted by stien

no worries mate, I'm sure in time you'll be able to grasp the concept too.

pod1

what have i started!!!

OMahonyO

I was in a pub playing poker the other day, we were talking about online poker.  This lad asked me what level I played, I said usually 25/50.  He nodded and said, yeah, thats where you start to get a decent game.  I asked what he meant, he said, well the players have half a clue when you get to that level, any lower and it gets on my nerves, they call anything with junk, they could have anything etcetc.

I was like, so you want to be up against better players, and basically he said yes.

My instant assumption was, rightly or wrongly that he was a total fish for his mind even working like that.

During the course of the tourney, I came to realise that my assumption was correct and he was a total fish.

Unless 2p/4p is so mind numbingly boring to you and you detest even sitting down to play, then I would start there.  I have said before, that nl4/8 for me personally was more profitable than nl10.

Of course you will get far more badbeats there than anywhere, but the amount of times you stack ppl that cant fold top pair, more than makes up for it

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : totally agree on this,solid poker by a decent player is the way to beat 2p 4p imo,maybe the biggest problem is players get impatient at "only" winning pots of 16p/20p but as tikay says,three buy-in a night =£60 a week,as for mtts being"donkaments" surly such skilled players should be able to beat 500 or so "donks"
Posted by DAVEYZZ

I've been playing Low Stakes Omaha Hi-Lo Cash for just an hour or two every night, after I've exited the Tourneys.

I sit down with £20 each night, & in 5 sessions, I've made just under £200. It's not exactly going to impress Lolufold & Co, but it's incredibly satisfying, & relaxing. And there is no need to get impatient, as a bunch of players sit down, & we chat about all sorts of nonsense in the Chat-Box.

Last night I entered three NLH Tourneys, & failed to cash in all three, so that was £44 down the shoot. I then sat in a 10p-20p Omaha Hi-Lo cash game, & aided, I confess, by a goodly dollop of run-good, the £20 was £85 inside an hour. I then lost £22 back, meaning I ended the session on £63, for a profit of £43.

So I had 6 hours poker, & it cost me a quid. During those 6 hours, I imposed a good few bad beats, & took a few. So what, it happens.

Poker really can be fun if you want it to, & it does not need to cost much.

donkeyplop

I play 8 and 10nl and while you get the odd nutter the play isnt that bad but it's easy to make a steady profit
playing tight aggresive abc poker.

PS. stien are you ever happy??

OMahonyO

Lol, 6 hours grinding for a loss of £1 doesnt sound like fun to me

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

I play 8 and 10nl and while you get the odd nutter the play isnt that bad but it's easy to make a steady profit playing tight aggresive abc poker. PS. stien are you ever happy??
Posted by donkeyplop

I saw mickjenn1 give him the slowroll of the year the other day, that cant have helped his mood, but it cheered me up lol

MP33

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

I was in a pub playing poker the other day, we were talking about online poker.  This lad asked me what level I played, I said usually 25/50.  He nodded and said, yeah, thats where you start to get a decent game.  I asked what he meant, he said, well the players have half a clue when you get to that level, any lower and it gets on my nerves, they call anything with junk, they could have anything etcetc. I was like, so you want to be up against better players, and basically he said yes. My instant assumption was, rightly or wrongly that he was a total fish for his mind even working like that. During the course of the tourney, I came to realise that my assumption was correct and he was a total fish. Unless 2p/4p is so mind numbingly boring to you and you detest even sitting down to play, then I would start there.  I have said before, that nl4/8 for me personally was more profitable than nl10. Of course you will get far more badbeats there than anywhere, but the amount of times you stack ppl that cant fold top pair, more than makes up for it
Posted by OMahonyO

Very true

I think thats one of the reasons some ppl moan at the micro levels so much as your generaly playing against wider ranges of starting hands and more fish.
If you can accept the badbeats for what they are ( sometimes time and time again ) you will beat it in the end.

In my experience tho i have learnt more playing at the higher levels against the better players and do understand your point about getting into bad habits from playing the micro stakes - You can sometimes get dragged in to playing hands you wouldn,t normally play, but as Redmond Lee (lolufold) says in the adverts on 865 "Its all about discipline"

It would be interesting to see you put an update on this thread in a few weeks on how you have got on.

ChirpyChip

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : I saw mickjenn1 give him the slowroll of the year the other day, that cant have helped his mood, but it cheered me up lol
Posted by OMahonyO

Reading this post definitely brightened my day

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : Very true I think thats one of the reasons some ppl moan at the micro levels so much as your generaly playing against wider ranges of starting hands and more fish. If you can accept the badbeats for what they are ( sometimes time and time again ) you will beat it in the end. In my experience tho i have learnt more playing at the higher levels against the better players and do understand your point about getting into bad habits from playing the micro stakes - You can sometimes get dragged in to playing hands you wouldn,t normally play, but as Redmond Lee (lolufold) says in the adverts on 865 "Its all about discipline" It would be interesting to see you put an update on this thread in a few weeks on how you have got on.
Posted by MP33

How I have got on with what ??

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

Lol, 6 hours grinding for a loss of £1 doesnt sound like fun to me
Posted by OMahonyO

"Grinding" is the clue. Others may have been "grinding", I was enjoying my hobby, playing poker with mates, & it cost me £1 for 6 hours recreation. Over the last few weeks, Online, I'm ahead about £1,300, but it comes & goes, some nights I don't win a bean, & it costs a few bob. 
 
If we only enjoy Tourney poker on the nights we actually win, we won't enjoy many nights. But every night I start off with nice implied odds, that's half the fun.  

pod1

well i am up in last 4 sessions of 2/4 all be it 5hrs today and a profit of 55p!! 

MP33

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : How I have got on with what ??
Posted by OMahonyO

I meant for Pod

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : "Grinding" is the clue. Others may have been "grinding", I was enjoying my hobby, playing poker with mates, & it cost me £1 for 6 hours recreation. Over the last few weeks, Online, I'm ahead about £1,300, but it comes & goes, some nights I don't win a bean, & it costs a few bob.    If we only enjoy Tourney poker on the nights we actually win, we won't enjoy many nights. But every night I start off with nice implied odds, that's half the fun.  
Posted by Tikay10

Yeah, I know, I kind of envy your mindset tbh.  I really struggle with finding not winning, fun, but like you say, spending £1 on 6 hrs of a hobby is good value, it just doesnt suit me.

The ironic thing is, I can and do regularly play for 6 hours and am often down a lot more than £1, but I keep coming back for more

OMahonyO

Pod1, how many tables do you play?  If you only play 1 or 2, then nl4 is the perfect place to start trying to add tables.  This is key at this level to dramatically increase winrate.

pod1

this week i will stay at 2/4 then next friday im going to the dizzy heights of nl 20, i will keep u posted mp33, phil

Tikay10

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : Yeah, I know, I kind of envy your mindset tbh.  I really struggle with finding not winning, fun, but like you say, spending £1 on 6 hrs of a hobby is good value, it just doesnt suit me. The ironic thing is, I can and do regularly play for 6 hours and am often down a lot more than £1, but I keep coming back for more
Posted by OMahonyO

It's an age thing.

I have never enjoyed poker as much as I presently do, & yet I've always, prior to this year, played at higher levels, where it can get a bit stressy.

Live & Online I'm £15k in front for 2010 (includes a goodly amount of profit from staking other players), but it's just (Live) little comps here & there, rarely bigger than £200, & the regular stuff on Sky Poker.  

I think, eventually, we all find that special place where lies contentment. I've found mine, but it took a few years to find it. For those still running at 100mph to play bigger & more, & who are treading water in effect, or getting into money trouble through poker, I have total empathy, I've been there. Not no more, though. 

scotty77

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn:

In Response to Re: is it the place to learn : Reading this post definitely brightened my day
Posted by ChirpyChip

lol plus 1