Fold KK pre flop????

CALLANIE

in a £33 dym with 5 plyrs left, i have about 3000 chips. comfortable 2nd place... blinds are 50  100. shortie makes it 400, big stack.with about 4000 chips goes all in , iv got KK should i call or just muck it.           just in case you wondered i called and he showed QQ, great i thought until Q came on turn .                                                                               

Eagle26

In Response to Fold KK pre flop????:

in a £33 dym with 5 plyrs left, i have about 3000 chips. comfortable 2nd place... blinds are 50  100. shortie makes it 400, big stack.with about 4000 chips goes all in , iv got KK should i call or just muck it.           just in case you wondered i called and he showed QQ, great i thought until Q came on turn .                                                                               
Posted by CALLANIE

that should answer your question

GREGHOGG

I fold if the shortstacks are very very short. like 2/3 bbs each.

But here it is a call.

donkeyplop

Just had kk I am never folding here!

Pretty brutal cooler though lol.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
deuceman2	Small blind		40.00	40.00	3860.00
donkeyplop	Big blind		80.00	120.00	4465.00
	Your hole cards	K K
oynutter	Fold
yidette9	Fold
timeforbed	Fold
antobe	Call		80.00	200.00	8010.00
deuceman2	Raise		280.00	480.00	3580.00
donkeyplop	Raise		1200.00	1680.00	3265.00
antobe	Call		1200.00	2880.00	6810.00
deuceman2	All-in		3580.00	6460.00	0.00
donkeyplop	All-in		3265.00	9725.00	0.00
antobe	Call		3265.00	12990.00	3545.00
deuceman2	Show	A Q
donkeyplop	Show	K K
antobe	Show	A A
Flop
		4 8 8
Turn
		9
River
		3
antobe	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 8s	12990.00		16535.00

N1CK

i just run it through my ICM and it said FOLD lol

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

i just run it through my ICM and it said FOLD lol
Posted by N1CK

whats icm ?

tapeworm

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : whats icm ?
Posted by The_Don90

Erm yeah whats one of these thingamabobs

scotty77

dym its a fold

GaryQQQ

Definitely fold in a DYM (definitely a call in any other sort of tournament).

I learned my lesson when I made a similar call with AA while safe in 2nd place, the big stack sucked out on me with JJ, the short stack who'd been in 4th before the hand was absolutely delighted.

In a DYM if you're a comfortable second you do not want to get all-in against the chip leader pre-flop under any circumstances whatsoever. Post flop only if you hold the absolute nuts.

CALLANIE

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

Definitely fold in a DYM (definitely a call in any other sort of tournament). I learned my lesson when I made a similar call with AA while safe in 2nd place, the big stack sucked out on me with JJ, the short stack who'd been in 4th before the hand was absolutely delighted. In a DYM if you're a comfortable second you do not want to get all-in against the chip leader pre-flop under any circumstances whatsoever. Post flop only if you hold the absolute nuts.
Posted by GaryQQQ

thanks for that gary, i think i learned my lesson there, definitely fold next time..cheers mate

N1CK

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : whats icm ?
Posted by The_Don90

ICM = Independent Chip Model

ICM thinks of your chips as tickets in a lottery and calculates what you could expect to get in prize-money if the remaining part of the tournament was just a lottery.

First it takes your chips and divides them with all the chips in the tournament. This finds how likely it is your win. Then it calculates your chance of getting in the other places, which is a more complex procedure. Then they multiply the chances of getting in the different places by the corresponding prize money for those places and add up. The sum is the value of your chips.

A program called SnG Power Tools uses ICM to calculate what you should do in an all-in situation in single-table tournaments.

LOL_RAISE

n1ck what are you doing now people might actually stop snapping off 15bb jams with QJ

N1CK

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

n1ck what are you doing now people might actually stop snapping off 15bb jams with QJ
Posted by LOL_RAISE

hey if you told them they would get struck down by lightning they would still call

HITMAN_RV

Fold kk pre??

Respect where respect is due!!!

Glitter told me after he had KK,  I'm not that good to get off that i dont think!!

May have telegraphed him & lost value, but just shows the skill of the man!!

My rererere-raise too high meybe, would you call aganst him or meybe overbet all-in, I was happy not to see flop & take a lower pot without him puttin me to a later tough descision, maybe!!

Hand History #305614866 (16:04 07/11/2010)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Slugger123	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£42.04
EVILEDNA	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£87.00
	Your hole cards	A A
sam1986	Raise		£3.00	£4.50	£285.90
rizo575	Call		£3.00	£7.50	£84.40
GliterBabe	Raise		£10.00	£17.50	£293.91
HITMAN_RV	Raise		£25.00	£42.50	£203.51
Slugger123	Fold
EVILEDNA	Fold
sam1986	Fold
rizo575	Fold
GliterBabe	Raise		£40.00	£82.50	£253.91
HITMAN_RV	Raise		£100.00	£182.50	£103.51
GliterBabe	Fold
HITMAN_RV	Muck
HITMAN_RV	Win		£107.50		£211.01
HITMAN_RV	Return		£75.00	£0.00	£286.01

waller02

given that it was a dym and you were in a comfortable position it would be a fold for me. not folding in cash or tourney though.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

Fold kk pre?? Respect where respect is due!!! Glitter told me after he had KK,  I'm not that good to get off that i dont think!! May have telegraphed him & lost value, but just shows the skill of the man!! My rererere-raise too high meybe, would you call aganst him or meybe overbet all-in, I was happy not to see flop & take a lower pot without him puttin me to a later tough descision, maybe!! Hand History #305614866 (16:04 07/11/2010) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Slugger123 Small blind   £0.50 £0.50 £42.04 EVILEDNA Big blind   £1.00 £1.50 £87.00   Your hole cards A A       sam1986 Raise   £3.00 £4.50 £285.90 rizo575 Call   £3.00 £7.50 £84.40 GliterBabe Raise   £10.00 £17.50 £293.91 HITMAN_RV Raise   £25.00 £42.50 £203.51 Slugger123 Fold         EVILEDNA Fold         sam1986 Fold         rizo575 Fold         GliterBabe Raise   £40.00 £82.50 £253.91 HITMAN_RV Raise   £100.00 £182.50 £103.51 GliterBabe Fold         HITMAN_RV Muck         HITMAN_RV Win   £107.50   £211.01 HITMAN_RV Return   £75.00 £0.00 £286.01
Posted by HITMAN_RV

you let him get away from that, i would jam over his £40 raise

LOL_RAISE

if you 6bet jam preflop vs GB hes still folding KK 200+bb deep because he knows his own image. i would just flat his 5bet

yb

Its a mistake for gliterbabe to 5bet then fold imo.

scotty77

200bb deep you should be flatting the 5bet edit GB has such a narrow range he aint gonna be doing that with 67s etc so really very very few flops should worry you.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

Its a mistake for gliterbabe to 5bet then fold imo.
Posted by yb

i agree and i think 6bet shove is the best option the small 6bet raise looks super strong, if GB wants to turn his KK into a bluff preflop then...................................

TommyD

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

Its a mistake for gliterbabe to 5bet then fold imo.
Posted by yb

Disagree, I think the 5bet saved him money.  GB is already narrowing down RV's range and does a click raise to find out if it is aces.  If you can 6bet without aces and do not have a reputation as a maniac more power to you.

If GB flats then any dryish flop Qhigh and lower comes down is he folding a flop jam?

Back to the OP, it's a fold in a DYM but it's vital to know all of the stack sizes when deciding, particularly the player in 4th place as it stands.

yb

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Disagree, I think the 5bet saved him money.  GB is already narrowing down RV's range and does a click raise to find out if it is aces.  If you can 6bet without aces and do not have a reputation as a maniac more power to you. If GB flats then any dryish flop Qhigh and lower comes down is he folding a flop jam? Back to the OP, it's a fold in a DYM but it's vital to know all of the stack sizes when deciding, particularly the player in 4th place as it stands.
Posted by TommyD

Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless.

YOUNG_GUN

in hindsight glitters fold was legendary! although not good long term taking that line

as for fold kings pre never unless DYM and that depends on stack sizes etc , i had kings yesterday in £5 sit n go big stack raises, im 2nd-3rd, 4 left i shove, short stack 69 big stack AQ biggy calls hits 2 aces on flop standard :-)

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Disagree, I think the 5bet saved him money.  GB is already narrowing down RV's range and does a click raise to find out if it is aces.  If you can 6bet without aces and do not have a reputation as a maniac more power to you. If GB flats then any dryish flop Qhigh and lower comes down is he folding a flop jam? Back to the OP, it's a fold in a DYM but it's vital to know all of the stack sizes when deciding, particularly the player in 4th place as it stands.
Posted by TommyD

he is turning KK into a bluff preflop. this is never good.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless.
Posted by yb

If you call the 4bet you are looking at a pot committing situation on the flop.  The majority of flops will obviously not have a King or an Ace.  So what's our plan?  Are we leading out with a 40 bet which will be greeted with either a shove or a pot committing raise?  Or are we checking to the raiser with the intention to going over the top or calling down?  Do we get it all in on a ten high flop and say 'that's poker?'  Or are you going to check/fold on a low flop where RV C-bets nearly every time?  A flop with an Ace or King, or a triple suited/run down flop plays totally differently but this won't happen that much.  Whatever happens unless you are check/folding to a decent C-Bet (an awful play IMO) you are dropping more money than the 15 quid you've used in the 5bet, so how has he not saved money in this instance?

Hitman's 4bet range is different to his 6bet range at this level against this player IMO.  The 4bet range is narrow, the 6bet range is paper thin.

You mention betting to find out where you are allows you to be exploited.  No decent player (which of course includes GB and RV) have a static attitude to their play.  They adjust and develop with their history with each other.  For instance, if Hitman decides to throw more 6bets at GB than he has done before GB will notice, think to himself 'that's because of those Kings I folded' and adjust his perception of his range accordingly.

I'm not saying 5bet folding with Kings is a great play against the field, the hand and indeed the fold is very player specific and by no means a standard hand.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Firstly if gliter calls pot will be ~£57 with £200 behind so I don't think hitman is shoving the flop tbh. Raising to find out where you are is always pretty bad imo, you allow people to play perfectly against you and be exploited. Whereas if you're not willing to get it in pre you can call the 4bet and play pokers, then re-evaluate based on board texture/oppo's betting pattern etc. Also in general this allows you to play against a wider range which your hand will fair better against, but here I really really doubt hitman's cold 4betting range is going to be much different to his 6betting range (if at all) so I think that makes the 5bet to ask the question pointless.
Posted by yb

i totally agree with your theory here, but if GB 5 bet with the intention of calling a shove then i think its a great bet he was allowed to get away from this imo by a bad 6 bet by RV, im going to give GB credit here unless he tells me otherwise lol

yb

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : i totally agree with your theory here, but if GB 5 bet with the intention of calling a shove then i think its a great bet he was allowed to get away from this imo by a bad 6 bet by RV, im going to give GB credit here unless he tells me otherwise lol
Posted by N1CK

Yah thats possible, I still think 5betting to get it in with KK is a mistake though given the players involved and how deep they are. I mean both their ranges from the cold 4bet onwards contain only AA and KK like 99% of the time lol.

yb

Tommy the answers to most of your questions in the first paragraph are obviously totally villain dependent. He saved money as opposed to 7bet shoving in this case but that doesn't mean that 5bet folding is the correct play as like lolraise says we are essentially turning KK into a bluff pre which isn't good. Raising to ask questions does allow you to be exploited as assuming for a second that all the 'answers' you get are accurate, you don't win any extra money when you're in front and lose extra money when you're behind. Btw I'm pretty sure the 5bet is a raise of 25 not 15.

Also what hands are in hitman's cold 4betting range that aren't in his 6betting range do you think? 4betting AK/QQ in this spot is a pretty big mistake imo.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Yah thats possible, I still think 5betting to get it in with KK is a mistake though given the players involved and how deep they are. I mean both their ranges from the cold 4bet onwards contain only AA and KK like 99% of the time lol.
Posted by yb

Are you seriously quoting TJ Coutier by saying the fourth raise is always aces or kings?

BTW, I did make a mistake with the amount on the 5bet, it was 25 extra

BTW, I'd love it if GB actually had junk and was trying to take Hitman off a hand so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so.

yb

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Are you seriously quoting TJ Coutier by saying the fourth raise is always aces or kings? And I did make a mistake in my earlier post, the bet was 25 pounds. BTW, I'd love it if GB actually had junk and was trying to take Hitman off a hand so he just blagged he had Kings to maintain his image, he'll be chuckling about this thread if that's so.
Posted by TommyD

Against a lag 100bbs deep, no. In this situation it nearly always is.

And gb has that image for a reason lol!

TommyD

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop????:

In Response to Re: Fold KK pre flop???? : Against a lag 100bbs deep, no. In this situation it nearly always is. And gb has that image for a reason lol!
Posted by yb

I know lol  Still a lovely thought though.

I think QQ would sneak into his 4bet range and AK might but is quite doubtful.  Outside of GB and RV it looks like a laggy table and RV might think GB is 3betting wider than his normal range.