You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!
tricky turn decision at.25/.50
i am dealt AK suited in the small blind.
themackem who is a regular player and is pretty strong raises from the button to £2
from the small blind i make it £6.50. folds back to themackem and he calls.
the flop brings 89A with 2 clubs. i bet £7 with the intention of looking like a weak continuation bet with QQ or KK. themackem flat calls.
the turn brings an offsuit J. i decide at this point that i dont want to scare him off. i know he has an ace and i know he is able to fold it. i check to him knowing he will bet.....this is where it gets tricky
He has £36 left on the turn and i have him covered.
he open shoves £36 into a pot of £27.50
What do we do???????
themackem who is a regular player and is pretty strong raises from the button to £2
from the small blind i make it £6.50. folds back to themackem and he calls.
the flop brings 89A with 2 clubs. i bet £7 with the intention of looking like a weak continuation bet with QQ or KK. themackem flat calls.
the turn brings an offsuit J. i decide at this point that i dont want to scare him off. i know he has an ace and i know he is able to fold it. i check to him knowing he will bet.....this is where it gets tricky
He has £36 left on the turn and i have him covered.
he open shoves £36 into a pot of £27.50
What do we do???????
Comments
To me it seems that you have shown weakness deliberately on the flop with the weak bet and followed it up with check on the turn. 'themackem' to me has spotted this and to of believed it your actions as being weak. His action therefore I feel after the check on the turn was to take the pot from you, knowing that if you were weak you wouldn't call off the whole of his stack. This however is not taking into account what 'themackem' could be holding himself. A 4xBB raise could indicate pocket 8s or 9s which would lead to the smooth call on the flop. Saying that however the action on the turn could of only been done if he knew that your shown weakness was false. I feel that the over bet would also be strange if he had just hit a set of Jacks. The other possible hands that could of beaten you were Q,10 and 10,7, although a raise with the 10, 7 would be unlikely.
Overall I feel you should call as the action on the flop and turn with your shown weakness would not result in a better hand pushing. To me it does seem as though the move was a steal.
Im sure i will be told otherwise!
I think he can show up with AJ here a massive amount of the time. He's always going to raise on the button with that and (unless I'm mistaken) you're aggro enough to make him think he could be ahead when you 3-bet him there. The flat-call on the flop makes sense, he doesn't want to donk money away incase you have AK, and on the occasions where you have KK/QQ he might get an extra bet out of you on the turn by looking weak with that call. When he sees your check having turned 2 pair he's facing a massive drawing board, and he may well be scared of you check-raising him which leaves him in an awful spot, which is why he probably shipped it. As played, i'd fold.
While I agree with you that he's good enough to fold an Ace, I still like a bet on the turn because most of the Aces that you were beating on the flop that are in his range picked up some more outs on the turn. AT and AQ are both part of his range and they both pick up straight draws, so he will pay to see the river card, possibly raising all-in a very small amount of the time (and we shouldn't completely rule out JT either IMO). You checked to him believing he had an ace, and since he's probably never flatting the flop with A8 or A9, or raising pre with any worse Ace, we've only been outdrawn by one hand which is the AJ. Therefore i'd bet the turn and fold if he ships it.
Hi huuuuume,
This is a great post BTW. Hand's like these have haunted me day in and day out. The way you've explained it everything that has happened in this hand seems to have gone in you're favour. As you said...
"i decide at this point that i dont want to scare him off. i know he has an ace and i know he is able to fold it. i check to him knowing he will bet"
he has done exactly what you wanted him to do which is give you his money. The problem is that you weren't expecting him to be so aggressive and thus I think you have changed your mind about what range of hands he could have. The amount of times I've gone into the tank over moves like this are countless. I tend to start panicking and wondering whether he is on a draw or he has actually hit a monster.
I think in this situation you can rule out a set. But a player like Lee could easily have raised with a Q10 or AJ. In which case he has put you perfectly on an AK, and believes that you are not a good enough player to fold your hand. Personally, I think he most likely had a A10, which is a great draw but still puts you at a percentage advantage to the river.
Personally, out of position I would have pot bet the flop. With my AK I don't want him to think I am too weak because it is a dangerous board and my hand can easily loose to a draw on the turn - it just shows I am serious. Once you've commited more chips on the flop it does make it easier to call his bet on the river i.e. it will be a £23 into a £39 pot. Also, this would give you more confidence to lead out on the turn instead of check calling.
I think with the little information you had it was an easy enough fold to make. However, to commit to your original thoughts that you were ahead, you needed to put the decision to him by betting both the flop and the turn strongly.
P.S. Can you let us know how much you were sitting with at the time.
i am good enuff to play the button and can raise to 2 quid with jack shlt ..... but this time i thought his reraise to 6.50 was worth calling as i was getting reasonible odds bare in mind i have the button !!!!
ace on the flop and a weak bet by him and a smooth call by me (thinking my hand could be good anyway ) turn is where the action is ......... Jack turn and a check by him i didnt even put him on an ace after he checks ... i know im miles ahead now so think i will take the pot now and jam the pot with about 40 quid left !!!!!!
he thinks, time almost out ,and calls im laffing when i see AK and think how bad he checked turn and weak bet flop !!!!!
then then dealer came along with his big fist and penetrated me without any ky jelly ....... river was King !!!!!!!
oooooo and my hand youngun got spot on ...... i had AJ !!!!!
i guess i just got lucky....as i said at the time and as is mentioned above i dont think your play with that hand made any sense on any street. at no point am i suggesting my play is perfect (it wouldnt be posted in the strategy forum if i thought that) but as you have also mentioned earlier in this thread you could have any hand after opening on the button so i think in this spot there is more in your range than solely AJ.
"if het puts a decent bet on the turn i can let my aj go" - you never fold your hand on the turn! you have hit your perfect card so that makes no sense either.
In Response to Re: tricky turn decision at.25/.50: SHIP IT! Lol. Now for a proper post:
In Response to Re: tricky turn decision at.25/.50: As I said in my original post, I think Lee's line makes sense, possibly untill the turn.
Either way, this is an excellent thread. It should be advised for people to say who the 'villain' in their hand was so that way we can get 2 sides of the story which makes the thread much more compelling.
Also when the flop came down showing an ace , it was a good idea to weak bet it,, to induce a good sized bet back as he could have been raising with a weak ace kicker , targeting the small-blind.
I hope you got paid off, you can't be afraid to put your money in with the best hand.
( fear nothing but fear itself)
This thread will be featured on tonight's show - Bounty Hunter at 9pm.
We are going to have a 40 minute cash session in the second hour of the show and this will be a great topic of discussion.
Please continue to add to this thread and Tikay and Rich will read out and debate it on the show.
Cheers,
Andy
Pretty standard stuff pre-flop: a button raise, a BB re-raise to fend off the steal. It's the play after that is interesting.
Flop:
The £7 flop bet is a standard c-bet and though it states 'I've got an ace' it doesn't necessarily mean anything. When this is smooth called this is a mistake. The AJ should have raised to say 'I don't know about you, but I've definitely got an ace'. If re-raised, the button has got to consider his kicker and let it go.
Turn:
The check with AK is a mistake. The c-bet on the flop said nothing and checking the turn indicates that the BB never actually held an ace (which is what he intended as a slow-play). The all-in by the button reinforced the call on the flop and said 'Not only have I got an ace, but I've also got a jack'. This should not have been called.
So:
Pre-flop: standard stuff.
Flop: button with AJ should have raised the c-bet and folded to a re-raise.
Turn: AK should have bet out again then folded to an all-in raise.
We have to bare in mind there is undoubtedly history between these 2. They are both regulars at this level and have been for quite some time, so they know enough about each other's game to be thinking on level 3 here.
They are both as aggressive each other, our hero in the blinds doesn't have to believe that the button is as strong as AJ when he open-raises, and our villain doesn't have to believe that our hero is particularly strong either as our hero is capable of sniffing out button raises and playing back without a premium hand.
Considering this, our hero could very easily 3-bet all-in on the flop with a draw (there are many of them out there!) and so the button doesn't want to open himself up to that because there's no way that can AJ can call there. So, why not just peel one off? It'll save money against AK, and win more money against KK?
NONSENSE
im sure my smooth call on the flop and a check on the turn from huuuume followed by the sight of a jack popping up defined my hand for me ....
i didnt have to reraise his flop bet cos if he shoves i fold...
nothing wrong peeling a card off and seeing what his next move is !!!!!!
just to add some random stuff in for the debate later.....
what is my play in this same spot with 89 suited for the flopped 2 pair but without the flush draw?
what does villain do if the turn is an offsuit 2?
how should this be played if turn is an offsuit queen?
does villain shove if the J on the turn also completes the flush draw?
fwiw i have no notes etc on the mackem and dont really have any known history off the top of my head with him if that makes any difference so when i played the hand i knew nothing more about him than a standard .25/.50 player
your right about the bad call ... but as far as a bad bet i still dont think it was . i trapped the guy trying to trap me !!!! it was purfect... hoping u had AK or AQ