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is this ok?

NODEALNODEAL
edited January 2011 in Poker Chat
what do you guys/ gals think?


Is it ok to ask players to leave a ring game to isolate a player?

I have saw this on a few oassions and believe its dead wrong.

One player I know thinks it is not wrong and even thinks it good etiquette if other players oblige and leave the table.

Peter
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Comments

  • loonytoonsloonytoons
    edited January 2011
    There are no private cash tables operating on sky poker atm, so sit where and when you want, and leave whenever you want. As for trying to isolate bplayers can you be more specific? do you mean 2 players colluding against another or do you mean someone wants HU aginst a player or what?
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited January 2011
    Well, in 1 sense its good etiquette, as the other option is to ask th weaker player to play them on a hu table.  If players are being asked to leave, then they can say no.  I cant imagine why they would tho
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    There are no private cash tables operating on sky poker atm, so sit where and when you want, and leave whenever you want. As for trying to isolate bplayers can you be more specific? do you mean 2 players colluding against another or do you mean someone wants HU aginst a player or what?
    Posted by loonytoons
    I couldnt say collussion,     I am talking about a six seat ring game and two players left on table and then a player sits to join them and one of the two players ask the new player to leave the table,    he/she leaves,     and each time someone else sits the same player asks them to leave.   thus isolating the player.
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  • loonytoonsloonytoons
    edited January 2011
    As mahony says whyn dont they go to a hu table instead of hogging a 6 seater table, but i suppose the other player could leave, if it was me i would do as i liked, why dont you stop the chatbox then you would never know lol
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    Well, in 1 sense its good etiquette, as the other option is to ask th weaker player to play them on a hu table.  If players are being asked to leave, then they can say no.  I cant imagine why they would tho
    Posted by OMahonyO
    I see what you mean but     if a player want to play hu he will sit at a hu table,     he is sitting in a ring game therefore he chose to play in a ring game and might be hoping the table fills up.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    As mahony says whyn dont they go to a hu table instead of hogging a 6 seater table, but i suppose the other player could leave, if it was me i would do as i liked, why dont you stop the chatbox then you would never know lol
    Posted by loonytoons
    as you said,   if a player has chat off or is playing on a sky set top box he would be unaware that his opponent was asking players to leave the table,     his opponent would be privy to more information than him.    And after all he is sitting in a ring game and one would pressume he is waiting for players to join.
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  • UnknownUnknown
    edited January 2011
    Meh it depends, I know sometimes when a fish has spanked me out of 8+ buyins, but won't move to a HU table and another reg sits in it makes your quest to get your money back more than twice as difficult. I sometimes ask people to leave, but don't get offended if they don't.

    On the other hand, if someone asks me to leave when they are obviously stuck loads to the fish, then I usually stand up and let them get on with it. However, if a reg is stacking the fish over and over and is just asking you to leave so he can keep winning, I don't leave and play on as normal.

    Shrug, works well for me
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    Meh it depends, I know sometimes when a fish has spanked me out of 8+ buyins, but won't move to a HU table and another reg sits in it makes your quest to get your money back more than twice as difficult. I sometimes ask people to leave, but don't get offended if they don't. On the other hand, if someone asks me to leave when they are obviously stuck loads to the fish, then I usually stand up and let them get on with it. However, if a reg is stacking the fish over and over and is just asking you to leave so he can keep winning, I don't leave and play on as normal. Shrug, works well for me
    Posted by CoxyLboro
    yeah but if a player is playing on a sky set top box he dosnt have access to the chat and is unaware of the other player asking people to leave a ring game...    he might be happy enough to continue while waiting for other players to join ...   seems unfair to me.      he is after all sitting at a ring game table.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : yeah but if a player is playing on a sky set top box he dosnt have access to the chat and is unaware of the other player asking people to leave a ring game...    he might be happy enough to continue while waiting for other players to join ...   seems unfair to me.      he is after all sitting at a ring game table.
    Posted by NODEAL
    If he really doesn't want to play HU he has the option of sitting out until someone else joins the game. No-one is forced to play HU.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : If he really doesn't want to play HU he has the option of sitting out until someone else joins the game. No-one is forced to play HU.
    Posted by MereNovice
    that is not what I asked       I asked is it ok to ask people to leave a ring game?
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    Meh it depends, I know sometimes when a fish has spanked me out of 8+ buyins, but won't move to a HU table and another reg sits in it makes your quest to get your money back more than twice as difficult. I sometimes ask people to leave, but don't get offended if they don't. On the other hand, if someone asks me to leave when they are obviously stuck loads to the fish, then I usually stand up and let them get on with it. However, if a reg is stacking the fish over and over and is just asking you to leave so he can keep winning, I don't leave and play on as normal. Shrug, works well for me
    Posted by CoxyLboro
    So if a fish is down lots of money to a regular your happy to add to the hole they are in, but if a reg is down lots to a fish then you will step aside. Probably more of an unknowing or unspoken agreement kind of thing to limit rake / max profits, or just out of general respect, but smells like a form of collusion to me, however unintentional.

    Most players are here to play a game not earn a living, and don't expect to be hustled out of their money, they expect a fair game with any edge based solely on skill at playing (granted naively).

    Targeting weak players is not a skill. In times gone by you sir would have your fingers broken ;-)

    Signed.....

    FISH
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : that is not what I asked       I asked is it ok to ask people to leave a ring game?
    Posted by NODEAL
    I was answering your last point which I believe I did clearly.

    Several people have already pointed out that they see no harm in asking other players to leave a ring game. It might seem a little odd since the implication is that the player wishes to remain HU with a player that he considers inferior so asking people to leave might well have the opposite effect.



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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : So if a fish is down lots of money to a regular your happy to add to the hole they are in, but if a reg is down lots to a fish then you will step aside. Probably more of an unknowing or unspoken agreement kind of thing to limit rake / max profits, or just out of general respect, but smells like a form of collusion to me, however unintentional. Most players are here to play a game not earn a living, and don't expect to be hustled out of their money, they expect a fair game based solely on skill at playing (granted naively). Targeting weak players is not a skill. In times gone by you sir would have your fingers broken ;-) Signed..... FISH
    Posted by RedHouse
    Targeting weak players is indeed a skill. Many top professionals would say that table selection is one of the main factors in their success.

    From the perspective of the supposedly weaker player, is he really worse off playing one strong opponent compared to multiple strong opponents?
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011
    They (we) would not be any better off facing two strong opponents granted. But what worries me about this response is that such unknowing / unspoken collusion could extend to how these players act during their hands.

    Table selection I'm ok with, sitting at a full table with the intention of only targeting one player, and been left alone by other regs, I am not.

    This is a competitive game and should be as much about challenging yourself against players of at least a similar if not slightly higher level of skill, as about making money.

    Bring back the fun.
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  • ybyb
    edited January 2011
    I don't have a problem with anyone asking the question, I would never agree to their request though.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : I was answering your last point which I believe I did clearly. Several people have already pointed out that they see no harm in asking other players to leave a ring game. It might seem a little odd since the implication is that the player wishes to remain HU with a player that he considers inferior so asking people to leave might well have the opposite effect.
    Posted by MereNovice
    several people are not you,   they have said what they think,    Soo  I will take it that you agree that its ok to ask players to leave a ring game.

    I still hold the opinion that this is borderline cheating

    As I have already said,   not all player have access to view chat and are therefore privy to more info eg chat,     to use the chatbox in such a way is definately wrong and could be construed as collusion,     The player isolated might think ill play a few hands while waiting for others to sit,    working on your principle then then if players know whos playing on a set top box then they can just collude to isolate the player constantly.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    They (we) would not be any better off facing two strong opponents granted. But what worries me about this response is that such unknowing / unspoken collusion could extend to how these players act during their hands. Table selection I'm ok with, sitting at a full table with the intention of only targeting one player, and been left alone by other regs, I am not. This is a competitive game and should be as much about challenging yourself against players of at least a similar if not slightly higher level of skill, as about making money. Bring back the fun.
    Posted by RedHouse
    If I understand correctly, this is the exact opposite of what the OP is concerned about.

    There would be no collusion anyway. Good players regularly re-raise to isolate against players that they consider weak. It is generally poor play to do otherwise.

    I play the game for fun but it is indisputable that many regulars at higher stakes have different priorities and this is entirely reasonable.

    Nothing underhand is going on so it is wrong to imply that it is.
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : yeah but if a player is playing on a sky set top box he dosnt have access to the chat and is unaware of the other player asking people to leave a ring game...    he might be happy enough to continue while waiting for other players to join ...   seems unfair to me.      he is after all sitting at a ring game table.
    Posted by NODEAL
    +1 Unless both players request the third to leave then I don't agree with it.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : several people are not you,   they have said what they think,    Soo  I will take it that you agree that its ok to ask players to leave a ring game. I still hold the opinion that this is borderline cheating As I have already said,   not all player have access to view chat and are therefore privy to more info eg chat,     to use the chatbox in such a way is definately wrong and could be construed as collusion,     The player isolated might think ill play a few hands while waiting for others to sit,    working on your principle then then if players know whos playing on a set top box then they can just collude to isolate the player constantly.
    Posted by NODEAL
    There is no collusion in this case. In fact, by playing HU the player is certainly reducing the possibility of any collusion.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : There is no collusion in this case. In fact, by playing HU the player is certainly reducing the possibility of any collusion.
    Posted by MereNovice
    Ok     If a player know someone doesnt have access to the chatbox he/she can sit down at the fish in questions table,      He then says,     hey guys      could you all please leave the table?       this guy is rubbish at HU.   I will do the same for you next time.         In your world thats ok.     In mine its collusion



    Ok   the guy could leave the table     But      Will he ever get a game if they keep isolating him?



    An extreme example I know      but     whats wrong is wrong

    period
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011
    With my example I was thinking more about players not playing premium hands against another reg even though their knowledge about the other regs range and everything about the situation suggests they should.

    Granted a 'bit' of a tangent but I don't see a huge leap from the behaviour in the opening post to the other.

    Regarding the opening post. Two players have made a collaborative decision which effects the status of the game without the third players knowledge = Collusion.

    The supposedly weak player may consider heads up to be te weakest point in their game and as stated before simply be waiting for the table to fill up.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    With my example I was thinking more about players not playing premium hands against another reg even though their knowledge about the other regs range and everything about the situation suggests they should. Granted a 'bit' of a tangent but I don't see a huge leap from the behaviour in the opening post to the other. Regarding the opening post. Two players have made a collaborative decision which effects the status of the game without the third players knowledge = Collusion. The supposedly weak player may consider heads up to be te weakest point in their game and as stated before simply be waiting for the table to fill up.
    Posted by RedHouse
    Ahhhh   common sense   at last  

    Collaborative decision   very well put
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : Ok     If a player know someone doesnt have access to the chatbox he/she can sit down at the fish in questions table,      He then says,     hey guys      could you all please leave the table?       this guy is rubbish at HU.   I will do the same for you next time.         In your world thats ok.     In mine its collusion Ok   the guy could leave the table     But      Will he ever get a game if they keep isolating him? An extreme example I know      but     whats wrong is wrong period
    Posted by NODEAL
    As I said, no-one is forced to play HU. Your point of someone not having access to the chatbox is irrelevant. If he sat at a full ring game and everyone else left to leave him HU he would be able to spot the consequences immediately.

    Similarly, if everyone who sat down left after playing one or two hands (or none at all) it would be readily apparent.

    I repeat, if someone is uneasy about playing HU they should sit out. I know of many regulars who do this and have myself left games many times when I have ended up HU against a strong opponent.
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  • ybyb
    edited January 2011
    redhouse no decent reg is going to start folding premium hands unless they think they're behind, but its definitely more optimum for them to play a lot more hands against the weaker players than against other regs.
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  • NODEALNODEAL
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : As I said, no-one is forced to play HU. Your point of someone not having access to the chatbox is irrelevant. If he sat at a full ring game and everyone else left to leave him HU he would be able to spot the consequences immediately. Similarly, if everyone who sat down left after playing one or two hands (or none at all) it would be readily apparent. I repeat, if someone is uneasy about playing HU they should sit out. I know of many regulars who do this and have myself left games many times when I have ended up HU against a strong opponent.
    Posted by MereNovice
    As redhouse put it,     two players making a collaborative decision without the other players knowlage is collusion.  

    the player without access to chat could stop playing but this means that they could constantly do this to him.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : As redhouse put it,     two players making a collaborative decision without the other players knowlage is collusion.   the player without access to chat could stop playing but this means that they could constantly do this to him.
    Posted by NODEAL
    If a player doesn't want to play HU he should do two things:

    1. Not sit down at a table with a single opponent

    2. Leave when everyone else but one player at the table leaves.

    It really is that simple. It's irrelevant how many times it happens.
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011

    Think we have found a fence here guys lol.

    Last Point: If you accept that the majority of players are playing for fun, then you have to accept that any 'control' over the status of the game exerted by two players without another's knowledge is unacceptable.
     
    Evan if the decisions made do not disadvantage the so called 'fish', at the very least they could be spoiling their fun :) by unnecessarily having created a game that the 'fish' did not want to play.

    P.S it is not always as simple as leaving the table if all are full (the newly spawned table may only have one opponent sitting at it) and the choice is either sticking with it or not playing.

    P.P.S Believing in the maths of bad beats I think I have just found my 'excuse' for losing. I'm being unfairly targeted :)

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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited January 2011
    if its on 6max table i sit in. like yb sid they can ask me to leave but i prob wont unless its a good friend who is stuck a ton.

    i think its alot worse etiquette to ask the weaker player to play HU whilst you are playing on a table with other people.

    or seat dancing.
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    Think we have found a fence here guys lol. Last Point: If you accept that the majority of players are playing for fun, then you have to accept that any 'control' over the status of the game exerted by two players without another's knowledge is unacceptable.   Evan if the decisions made do not disadvantage the so called 'fish', at the very least they could be spoiling their fun :) by unnecessarily having created a game that the 'fish' did not want to play.
    Posted by RedHouse
    Last point: That is a complete "non sequitur" and I don't have to accept it in any shape or form.  :-)))

    Two of you appear to find this practice worrying; no-one else seems to be concerned. I don't think that I can add anything further to this thread.

    Good luck to you and enjoy your poker.
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  • RedHouseRedHouse
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: is this ok?:
    In Response to Re: is this ok? : Last point: That is a complete "non sequitur" and I don't have to accept it in any shape or form.  :-))) Two of you appear to find this practice worrying; no-one else seems to be concerned. I don't think that I can add anything further to this thread. Good luck to you and enjoy your poker.
    Posted by MereNovice
    Think that's because i'm the only fish posting but yeah nothing more to say.

    Agree to disagree sir.

    Hmm I enjoyed that :)
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