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Studying poker actually makes you worse.....discuss
I know more about poker than I used to.....odds......fold equity......calling range......blah blah blah........but I am convinced I am actually a worse player. Is it just me or does anyone else feel this way? (about themselves.....not me.....for all the smart alecs). By the way this is the first ever thread I have started so it is not just a moan.
Comments
You don't get as many huge 'I can't loose' sessions because you have enough sense to put down the hands that you may have being getting lucky with before.
Studying has improved my game by miles. I can't say it'll work for everybody, but it does for me.
Inevitably you are going to get these advanced techniques wrong the first few times you do it so you should expect to lose money. The thing to remember is to work out where you went wrong and learn from your mistakes. As long as you are analyzing your hands (winning and losing) to see where you could have done better, you will become a better player.
Hi Mike.
I used to run great and win lots when i knew less. This is because I was doing the basics well without actually realising it properly at the time.
I then hit a huge downswing when I learnt loads of fancy terms and trying to play fancy poker hit my profit bigtime. In fact I became a losing player for a while.
But getting back to the basics has helped me tremendoulsy and im back on track now! Who needs to four/five bet light and all that baloney. Just play simple and win innit.
Obviously the occasional donkey move does still occur, but only to make it interesting lol.
I also noticed that certain players were easy to bluff against and others were not. Betsizing was important, but instinct would tell me how much to bet in each situation, automatically computing the relative chipstacks,size of blinds, and ability of the other players. As an example I discovered that if I was on a passive table, I could raise after they had all called and scoop up the chips !
As I went along I discovered a few technical terms. I found out that I was Cbetting, 3 betting, squeeze betting, using position, chip dynamics, fold equity and much more besides !
But does knowledge of the names help my game ? Probably not !
As other people on here have posted, the problems come when you hit the downswing. I know a bit about this because I have been through a few ! And it is easier to get into a downswing than to get out of it. A few bad beats and a few mistakes and suddenly there are a few doubts about your own game. That K 10 suited on the button that last week you would have raised with or folded without a thought, suddenly becomes a problem, and you find yourself limp/folding !
Its a confidence game, and playing badly leads you to spiral downwards, the more mistakes you make, the worse you feel, and make more errors.
Watching other players doesnt help, you see Tikay making a success of playing AA only or those creative guys 4 and 5 betting to build chip mountains ! And you know that neither will work for you.
To me, if you are on the downswing, it is the wrong time to read the poker books and it will not help. You will not find the answers you seek. Far better that you take a decent break from the game. Or get a friend to honestly analyse your play. Some thing that works for me when my online game is not going great, is to get out and play live, it can change the negative mindset.
So I believe that studying can make you worse, often you need to think less about the game not more, and trust your experience and instinct.
The best time to read the books is when its going well, it will reinforce your confidence and help your game.
Confidence is all ! I had a nice Open win last night so I am well up for the Vegas semi later.
Good luck
My results have gone from up to break even over the last year (to be honest actually losing at present) having said that my live results are at an all time high but learning the 4 card game was a goal of mine and I honestly believe it's where the money is!
Dave
Imo, experience is how to learn to play poker, it's an instinctive game, and no book can help us to play--- what we learn by our experience stays hard wired in our poker memory, we don't even know that we know it--- what we learn from a book is soon forgotten. We are constantly put into situations where we have 20 seconds to make our move, what to do? Look it up in a book?--lol-- we have to be playing on our instincts!
Winning poker players don't play abc poker, they play thier own instinctive game, if everyone played the same game there would be no winners, and no losers. If you play abc poker from a book, you are predictable and therefore a soft touch to an instinctive player that has you sussed. Have you ever heard anyone say "I'm a great player because I've read 125 books about how to play poker"?--- My guess is no---
If you want to grind 10 cash tables all day long, you can earn money playing abc poker from a book-- but if you want to become a good player, it's too late!!--- you have already poisoned your poker brain by reading those books!--- In summary--- Individual wolves become great players, not sheep----innit
Just to clarify a couple of points.....
I am still enjoying the game and regularly take breaks, during both winning and losing times (work and life dictate that).
I am comfortably within my real life bankroll and so that is not affecting my decision making (although I am firmly of the belief that brm, important as it is in all forms of poker is most key in cash, especially the way that the game has developed - i.e as long as you are WELL within your br, play any 2, lose a couple of buyins if you must but eventually you will bust someone with your 4 7o and get your money back).
Having said all that, it probably isn't worth bothering to continue the debate if oynutter is right "but if you want to become a good player, it's too late!!--- you have already poisoned your poker brain by reading those books"....lol
I look forward to further views
I can see the obvious benefits of teaching your son golf from the start. But would it have worked as well for you ? Having reached the great level of a single figure handicapper through natural talent, would lessons have helped you ?
From personal experience and the examples of many semi pro players, tuition can have a negative effect, certainly in the short term. Coaches will invariably want to rebuild your swing, and it can result in years in the wilderness. There are examples in the pro game of players who have improved after radical changes, but there are also many instances of people who have lost their game altogether, or reverted to their old natural swing and been successful.
And Mike, dont worry ! oynutter is right that some players may be poisoned by studying, but I dont believe that you got to Vegas by being a sheep. Wolves hunt by instinct, and never lose that. Just remember you are a wolf and keep chasing the sheep !
My current Sharkscope graph is pictured below (I've filtered out my £220 SSDS seat which I won in the LS freeroll). The blue arrow points to the exact moment I resumed playing after returning the walk. After looking at that graph try telling me that reading those books didn't improve my game!
(click to enlarge)
The more you play, the more you know and understand, the more success you have, it becomes easy to deride and under estimate your opponents. If you think you have the edge it becomes pretty hard to play ABC poker because you know alot of the angles and moves.
But yeah, i think knowledge and experience can run interference on your game.
But I am sure they all benefited from coaching at some point in their careers
In Response to Re: Studying poker actually makes you worse.....discuss:
Now this is getting scary, dohhh another of your posts that I wholeheartedly agree with...plus this earlier one....Studying poker definitely does not make you worse. It just changes your mind-set/approach to the game, which will make you 'feel' worse when you aren't successful.I don't think I've ever read anything so ridiculous on here as this....."I believe that studying can make you worse, often you need to think less about the game not more and trust your experience and instinct."
Experience and instinct alone are fine if you're a Jedi but for us mere mortals and most of the top winning players/coaches learning from books alongside other training methods are/were the key to success. Sure there are geniuses that prove the exception but Jeez I've just watched a live seminar during which the presenter said he read more than 50 poker books many of them more than 10 times, and guess what, he's a winning player, a successful coach and the author of several highly regarded poker books. I agree playing is an absolute must but there are a ton of things that will improve your game away from the tables, reading poker books is only part of the learning process.
Another staggering comment IMO....“I just think that reading about the tactics of another player in an effort to improve your game, is ultimately bad for the development of your own instinctive game, in other words. I believe that all of your tactics, and every move you make should be as a result of what you have learnt yourself”
Learning from players that are better than us shortens the learning process, plus its a dam site cheaper than playing LOLufold, lJamesl, Sparce et all all day long to see where we are going wrong.
In short Maggiesdad learning will not make you worse, done correctly it can only improve your game, what it won't guarantee however are results because a couple of lost flips will affect short term results, playing 10,000 hands and losing two all in flips above expectation takes a +2bb/100 player to break even, it really is that close. Maybe that's why it's the fish that are so results orientated over very small sample sizes.