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If I have 3 or 4 tables open for an hour or so, I feel confident in my ability to edge my stacks upwards across them. But I always have the fear of stacking off on one of them and all that effort going to waste (as happened last night!). So a lot of the time I think I am not as aggressive as I am at MTT, and too tight. I suppose the key must be picking the right spots for aggression.
Your point about needing to play for a meaningful amount to maintain concentration is also very relevant. I am probably overbankrolled to be playing 15/30, a bad outcome like last night was not that important. I drew a blank in tournies too and that cost me a bit more !
But I will stay here and relish the challenge of beating this level before thinking of moving up.
I dont want playing cash to affect my tournament play. I think I can always spot the cash guys in tournies, they do have a different style (not saying its better or worse !!). But it does highlight the need to develop a cash head separate to my tourny head.
Thanks Phil, see you at Luton !
So say you started at 2p/4p and the max buyin is £4,set a limit of only losing two or three buyins at that ammount before logging off for the day. Tbh though that should rarely happen, especially if you're multi tabling.
Misclick pre, or mean to limp utg w/j9h?
I used to dabble on the cash tables, I have to say very badly. I had a long chat with GliterBabe about cash in Blackpool and decided to have a serious go at it. I started at the beginning of November and have had some ups and downs as may be expected. Like Alan (Maxally) I had the fear of going busto if I had an extended bad run. The reality has been that, in almost 4 months, I have played about 350 tables at £8nl, £10nl and £20nl, allowing myself a br of 10 buy ins (ie £200). I play on 3/4 tables at a time (I hate mini view) and have found that even if I have a bad time on one table, the others tend to make up for it. I lost 23 buy ins in Nov/Dec, 13 in Jan (never more than 1 in any session), but I have not lost any in Feb. So I have lost my buy in at 10% of the tables I have played. That does not sound very good and it probably isn't. However, I must be learning something as whilst I lost money over Nov/Dec, I have turned that round since January and feel confident that I can make progress going forward and I am no longer in fear of losing my br "in a hurry".
this is massively wrong, 100k breakeven stretches are not that uncommon for proffessional 6max grinders (maybe not on sky because tbh sky is softer than the vast majority of sites)
20+ buyin downswings will be an almost monthly occurence at nl200+
this is a picture of a variance simulator tool for a winrate of 10bb/100 (that is a very very good winrate in todays games) over 10,000 hands
http://www.evplusplus.com/site_media/images/variance/wr_10.00_sd_80.00_nruns_30_nhands_10000_True_e3mAwI.png
Tikay,
I fear you may be leading these guys up the garden path here. Firstly can I get this one straight, a winning player requires a bankroll, a losing player requires a budget. It's fine for AJS to have a 30 buy-in roll, he's a winning player, Greg, Penguin et al have no idea how they will go, they may well beat nl30 and never look back but what if they don't. Neither you nor they know how long it will take them and how many buy-ins they will lose before they are beating the game. If your starting out give yourself a budget to learn the cash game and if you lose it which you probably will get another one, learning costs money there's just no way round it for the majority of us. Only after you have established yourself as a winning player is it time to consider how much to keep in your bankroll.
IMO nobody should expect to rarely lose on the night, & almost never over a week, or a month, it's unrealistic and will only build false expectations and I include competent cash players playing 6 tables. I recently watched a video were the pro explained how he lost 45% of the cash sessions he played, sure he beat his games for a $300,000 annual profit but within a span of 1m hands he encountered a run of 17,000 hands where he lost 20 buy-ins and another 100,000 hands where he made nothing. Eric lieu won big in the first European Cash game and then lost heavily in the second one is he not competent? Durrrr's swings are unreal as are many of the top cash pro's, even the great Dane Gus Hanson lost $5m in 2009 on FT, but won $1.3m in one month alone in 2010. Why would us mere mortals be any different especially when we are starting out.
Stating that in Cash Poker variance is massively less than Tourney Poker is IMO foolhardy as it gives the impression that cash poker is a safer option v tourneys. At NL50 you could lose four buy-ins in a couple of minutes, four days of Primo entry fees, rinse and repeat for a week and your down 28 Primo entries, how big was your budget? Stacks can be won & lost at an alarming rate and it's not a rare occurrence, you have to be able to deal with this and its not easy, confidence can be washed away as quickly as your bankroll/budget. Honestly I have sat at the tables thinking I have absolutely no idea how to play the game (yes scotty77 I know you agree) after taking a sustained run of lost flips, missed draws, continuous coolers and unreal beats ,more than enough to destroy a 30 buy-in roll. Trust me there is plenty of variance in cash poker and when your on the wrong side of it its expensive and no joke.
I hope you all run good, well at least until your sat at my table.
I wouldn't be surprised if his actual roll has a zero at the end of it.
And to compare Durr etc to a low stakes 6 max grinder is lol. A 6 max grinder is never gonna get into half the tricky spots that Durr is gonna be in.
But yeah to expect NOT to have a losing week/month is very unrealistic.
I have absolutely no idea how to play the game (yes scotty77 I know you agree)
lolllllllllll. nah mate...60nine60 is probably the only reg I think that of tbf
I think most of us have been here at some stage in our poker careers irrespective of whether we mainly play cash or tournies
I was using Durrrr for the reasons i am sure you understand not comparing him/them to 6 max cash grinders.
The AJS roll is in danger of becoming a Tikay mantra thou, no matter how big it is or isn't. How many players thought i know i'll play poker, got online and lost, made a second deposit and never looked back. If thats his story and I do not doubt it for a moment he's not the norm and should not be talked of as a guide for the rest of us IMO.
So as an answer ot combining them both I dont really know. I personally think one or the other is the best way. With the odd weekly MTT thrown in.
Thread gets better!
I'll reply properly (such as I can.....) tomorrow.
We need to remember I am talking about newbie Cash Players, playing, typically, nitty A-B-C poker on 1 or 2 Tables, not high-stakes multi-tablers who play very close to the edge. Different thing entirely.
Of course variance exists in cash poker - but it's way, way, less than in Tourney Poker, by a huge amount. THAT is the important message.
A newbie, playing conservatively, prudently, nitty poker cannot endure huge downswings, & if they do, they are doing something wrong. Which is a different thing to a downswing!
I am NOT a cash player, by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not qualified to debate too strongly with high-rollers. But recreational newbies, playing sensibly, that's a whole different thing, and is right up my street.
A 150,000 hand downswing? I'm sure you are right. But a recreational player will not play that many hands in their entire life.
It's just about newbie cash players, playing sensibly.
Anyway, enjoy your evening. I'm just off for a 4 Tourney downswing. Mine's been going half a lifetime......
Oh, I forgot one thing.
You are right - I was wrong to say "never to have a losing month".
A better turn of phrase would have been "a nitty newbie, playing A-B-C conservative poker, is much less likely to have a losing month". If they did, I would not necessarily consider it a "downswing" - that'd be kidding them, & us. It's probable that they are doing something wrong. A different matter entirely. All imo, of course.
Penguin7, for example, is extremly unlikely to have a losing cash month, because he has a solid grasp of the game. But he might.
An edgy high-roller, playing fancy-dan stuff, is far more likely to have bigger downswings.
I apologise for the careless wording.
Opened 4 tables but found it all a bit messy with lots of comings and goings and shortstacks about. Found few spots on 2 tables and had to top up but ran well on other two getting both stacks up to close to £50. Then it happened as on the post above ! Easy to get tilted here. Decided not to reload, and close that table. Concentrated on trying to recover on the other three. Dont know if that would be everyones choice ? Managed to claw some back on all of them, but not enough. Watching Trickett,Lewis and Timoshenko now, tomorrow is another day.
Jaworzno Loss £30
Legnica Profit £23.26
Sandmoor Loss £9.75
Gotts Park Profit £4.06
So I was lucky to only show a loss of £12.43 on the night and it leaves me still just in front so far by a princely sum of £14.26
I thought the opposition was tougher tonight, does the quality of players vary that much earlier or later in the evening ? Sillymidon I thought dangerous and also Fins who I know well from tournies.
As for what tikay said I can only go on my experience. I regular have losing nights. Its very rare for me to have a losing week and I have never had a losing month.
As for advice for opening poster, I think he should leave a grand in his account at end of this month and just play cash for march. A month should give him an very good idea how good he is and can take into account c4p bonus.
As for advice for opening poster, I think he should leave a grand in his account at end of this month and just play cash for march. A month should give him an very good idea how good he is and can take into account c4p bonus.
Thanks for that, I am sure that is very good advice. I would definitely miss playing tournaments but if I am to really make a go of playing cash it probably needs to be that way.
Not ready yet to make that decision though, I need to convince myself that I am good enough and also that I will enjoy it enough !
"As for what Tikay said I can only go on my experience. I regular have losing nights. Its very rare for me to have a losing week and I have never had a losing month"
AJS you don't have to go off your own experience alone, simply reading this thread would tell you there are others on here and many far more talented players in the wider poker community who experience variance that suggests you may have been fortunate to escape such a run thus far. I am not doubting your talent but on the rare occasions I have run into you, run good much seems a fair tag.
In any case players entering cash games for the first time should not IMO use your experience as a yardstick, your story appears to be the exception to the many players I know, the majority of us are not blessed with your talent and good fortune. I know I have had to work very hard to post profitable results and I have had many, many losing months along the way, not as positive as your story but I'm sure its closer to what most players will experience.