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In my early cash days when switching i made basic errors but the more i improved the better i got, and i did build a BR and start moving up the stakes, i took a shot at a higher stake came out in profit once, on mastercash too. After that and i may have taken too much confidence when i dropped back down and maybe tried to play the game i played against tommyd and others that where on that mastercash table against opponents that i shouldnt have, maybe i waundered away from ABC poker.
But what i can say is after i lost a chunk of that and i tilted, i felt varience bad, that was in novemeber and i cant remember having two winning cash sessions since. Now again im not saying my game was played correctly, however what i know is im playing levels i crushed when i was a worse player.
Variance does effect us all, and therefore i understand BRM better now than I ever did. The reason why i understand it was after maybe 3 or 4 bad beats, i sat down where i couldnt afford it with the attitude of "i've taken money off better players" when that makes no differance. Did i run good when i played that night, or did i play well. I like to think i played well, but looking back aswell, i did run good during that session, if i didnt hit a runner runner house against a flopped flush then where am i?
I agree with you stien others will have totally different experiences. Just letting people know what worked for me. Every poker player will have to come up with a different bankroll strategy depending on numerous factors. Such as their goals, how good they are compared to who they play, what games they play. etc etc
But remember most players who play poker are losing players. Therefore for the vast majority it should be like anything else in life set yourself a budget. When I was a losing player my budget was $50 a month. I deposited $50 and lost it in a day. So I stopped playing real money just play money. I worked hard learning the game. I easily beat play money lol. The next month came I deposited another $50 fortunatly (and through a lot of hard work) that has turned into way way more.
It may not seem like most players are losing players but that is because in the online world the winning players replicated themselves over numerous tables and play a lot more hours than losing players. There will always be more losing than winning players due to the rake. If it wasnt for rake I would be a rich man and there would be so many more pros out there. However, its always going to be here it will never go away.
Don't get me wrong AJS I have no issue with you explaining your story, my concern was simply that some people reading it would take it at face value when IMO the experience for most of us is far different. When Tikay quotes your 30 buyin rule it only reinforces your story and thus increases its potential for giving players false expectations, (if players expect to deposit twice albeit with play money in between and win from there this is IMO a very false expectation). Dusty Schmidt always talked of never having a losing month but even he I believe had one recently.
Breaking even at poker is an achievement on its own, becoming a winning player is even more difficult to achieve. It is far too easy for people to become disillusioned with the game if they don't start off with realistic expectations, when the bad run inevitably comes it hits all the more harder if you never expected it in the first place.
I accept this is not your fault but your story as told has no down side, it is without variance, you are accepted as one of the better players on the site but maybe, just maybe you may also be a jammy sod.
its all to easy to run terrible for 4/5 buyins and tilt the same+ away, at nl100 and below i would guess that its very rare for a good reg to have a month in the red and that recreational players have far more chance of getting stuck as they dont play enough hands and they arnt as good skill wise
So when I sat down at 3 tables, I found it difficult to concentrate. Still thinking about things said on the show, and also about aspects of my own play in the tourny, I found myself not being totally aware of everything that was going on. It was a shame really because I thought all three tables pretty soft, lots of limping! When two of the tables broke I gave up and got out.
I think concentration may be a problem for me, its hard to play a tournament with a prize of close on £4k, then focus on grinding away at 15/30. This along with advice I have been given may mean I have to rethink my plans.
I made a tiny profit on all 3 tables, so its been a cheap night for me as I freerolled into the biggie.
Koszalin Profit £0.55
Gotts Park Profit £2.48
Sandmoor Profit £7.46 Running total : Profit...£22.75
Very unlucky in the biggie - no way off that hand! Amazingly, a third player passed 2 hearts, too.
"no offence" to the existing analysts, but Paul Jackson was different gravy? Don't worry, none taken! I have held the view for quite some years now, that I do not know a single poker player who is better able to explain how best to play the game. We shall use Paul as a Guest Pro whenever we are able. I've invited him to be one of the players in our Studio-based cash game (to be recorded in early April), & I've also invited him to an SPT, where he's agreed to do a Masterclass for ther Sky Poker players. Really, when it comes to teaching the game, he's the absolute business.
Concentration, when switching between the £220 Biggie, & 15p/30p Tables? There is no way round that one. Different mindsets are needed, & I don't recommend it.
Now, go bink a VLV Package please - be good to see you in Vegas again this year, & you did promise me you'd do everything you could to be there. Good luck!
FWIW going back to the AJS's BRM, I use the same idea as him, cashing out weekly (When possible) but I have 40 buyins instead of 30.
But playing at the level I have been trying is not going to work. As someone who lives off the buzz of a tournament final table I cant find it playing 15/30. AJS made the suggestion that I have a month playing only cash and I think he is correct. But I will need to play at a higher level so that it actually hurts when I lose, and I get a kick out of it when I win. This is not happening at the moment.
I believe I would need to play at least at £1nl to have the interest and commitment to succeed, maybe even one level higher. Now that would bring me into contact with some bigger fish indeed, some very respected players. In many ways, not disrespecting the lower level players, this would suit me better. But my bankroll is very important to me, playing 50p/£1, I could comfortably meet the normal BRM guidelines. Any higher I would be pushing it.
I have not actually worked since before Christmas, partly through choice, also it is a quiet time of year. So it would not be a wise time to push the boat out.
So I have decided to put this experiment on hold for a bit. I am no quitter, and I apologise to anyone who is following this thread, and may be critical of the fact it has only run a few days.
I will be back, and will succeed, and the advice and support received has been invaluable. Sometimes the discussion has got a bit lively, but it has all been constructive and welcome.
Some of it has been very thought provoking. The discussion about variance between some of the higher level players certainly made me think. At every level, for every winner there must be a loser. So every time the likes of AJS withdraws their weekly profit, someone at the same level will be having to deposit a similar amount. Some of those respected players do not win every week or even every month. Obviously the long term winners are the ones with the bankroll management skills to cope with the variance.
So good luck to anyone else looking to move from tournaments to cash, I hope Hoggers and Maxally have got something out of this. Also respect for the likes of Charles and Phil who have already made it work.
Well its back to tournaments only for me for a bit. Looking forward to Luton but the top priority is Vegas. Having been there and got the Tshirt (wearing it at the moment !) I have to make it again.
Tournaments have been so good to me, I still remember the thrill of winning my first one here on Sky. It was almost 4 years ago £500 gtd for a £5 buyin and I won it for £350. And through 2008 I never looked back. But the comments made on here about variance in tournaments should be heeded. Those downswings do happen, I am on my third, check it out on Sharkscope ! That doesnt tell the full story though, there are a couple of SPT cashes and the little bundle of dollar bills I brought back from Vegas are not shown. And my record live is quite encouraging. Unfortunately my nearest casinos are Luton and Great Yarmouth and I am midway between them, so I dont play live enough.
I am hugely envious of the TSP guys, those are the tournaments I want to be playing. Good luck to them all in the next one though. And look out those of you near the top of the MTT league, I am coming to get you !
Tony
Penguin,
I wouldn't listen to Tikay he doesn't play cash on here so how would he know anything about it, he has yet to explain his competent cash players always win, anywhere, everyday theory. To be honest it makes my laugh how a tourney player can even contemplate playing nl100 and even higher without playing lower first, these games arn't so easy, unlike the fish laden tourneys your used to.
As for a bank roll how do you think we got ours, by beating the games on the way up, as I said on an earlier post, it takes hard work beating any game these days unless you have a special talent.
Let us all know when you'll be playing 1/2 I'm sure James, bdog, lol and the boys will be glad to join you.
But I think you have too poor a view of tournament players. Building my bankroll has not been easy, even if you think I have done it in fish laden tournaments. As you say it takes hard work beating any game, and this applies to consistently cashing well in tournaments too.
I think you put a fantastic point down, ive not read your reply to Stien yet as ill forget what i wanted to say.
However when you said you found it difficult to focus as NL30, getting no buzz from winning and not hurting when losing, this was the exact same for me when i first tried my buzz at cash, Obviously i was a lot lower.
However i am curious if the other former MTT players that are now cash grinders felt this at first?
I Posted, several days ago.....
"......You are right - I was wrong to say "never to have a losing month".
A better turn of phrase would have been "a nitty newbie, playing A-B-C conservative poker, is much less likely to have a losing month". If they did, I would not necessarily consider it a "downswing" - that'd be kidding them, & us. It's probable that they are doing something wrong. A different matter entirely. All imo, of course.
Penguin7, for example, is extremly unlikely to have a losing cash month, because he has a solid grasp of the game. But he might.
An edgy high-roller, playing fancy-dan stuff, is far more likely to have bigger downswings.
I apologise for the careless wording......".
Also, I have played cash on this site since the day it opened, not less than two nights per week, over 4 years, at every level from 2p-4p, to £2.50-£5, though not much volume of any.
I don't mind if Penguin listens to me or not, he's a grown-up, with his own mind. He'll make that decision, though, he's quite capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff. A balance of views & opinions is what he sought, & that's what he's getting.
Why the need to refer to tourneys as "fish-laden"? Rather rude, is it not?
Yes, me too ! Is it just me that believes it has to matter financially, if I am to play my best?
I do accept what Stien says about all the top guys having battled their way up through the levels. But I also respect what Flashflush posted about the action at 15/30 having little relevance to the higher levels. How much does the game change moving up through each level from there ?
I mean a lot of people on this site and play low stakes,and play for recreation,the mtt,s are great value and give me hours of enjoyment.
I think what a large number of people here dont realise aswell is when your in a tournament every desision can be your last. Thats not the case in cash, unless poor BRM is in place. Cash has its advantages and so does mtts.
This is something ive learned over the last few months. The buzz of an mtt final table will always be my best, and i dont think i can think of any level on cash where i could get the feeling of taking down an mtt. Expessially if you have been on one of those runs where you just arent making final tables for one reason or another, that first win afterwards is always a huge feeling to me. And even if i was given £200 by one of the big stake players and told to put it down on NL200 and everything i make i can keep, i dont think i could match that buzz in cash.
Tikay,
When I have played in tourneys on here, and thankfully it's an infrequent event, no other term explains the plays I have witnessed than fish laden, I watch enough of 865 to be sure of this statement. There is nothing wrong with lots of inexperienced players playing tourneys and therefore making errors, denying their existence is however another matter.
Playing a nitty ABC style will for some players get the money in, but this is a style that IMO is most susceptible to running bad as the nitty abc style earns on its big hands and big flops, if the cards turn against you in these pots those 2 or 3 buyins take some getting back. Hurst05 doesn't play an abc nitty style but you should read his post and look at the run he's on, there ain't much you can do when you run like that, it reminds me of several downswing's I have had on here.
Fair enough Tikay you have played some cash on here, but the games are changing, you have to put in the a decent volume IMO to have a real understanding of what it is really like playing cash at these levels today.
I have not and am not saying Penguin7 is a bad player, what I am saying is that it is foolhardy to even contemplate playing nl100 or even higher straight out of the box, the regs at 1/2 will see an abc style 3 miles away and I am sure they know how to combat it, there are many at nl100 who aren't blind either.
The point I was trying to get across was in effect a word of warning to those who are giving cash a try, its tough, tougher than you may think. Set a budget, play at a low level where the lessons are cheaper and be prepared for a bumpy ride, if it all turns out well and you have a story like AJS wonderful. I'm just saying its not always like that, you may look back and think STT's & MTT's weren't such a bad option after all.
Also for anyone who wishes to do this and isn;t sure how to just contact me ill be happy to assist
But if your experience of Sky tournaments is infrequent, other than watching 865 you may be missing something. Obviously the majority of televised events are large fields with many inexperienced and recreational players. And its not usually the perfectly played hands that make good TV ! I play enough larger buyin, smaller field tournaments to know that the majority of players in that type of game are more than competent,and many have a lot more than ABC poker to their game. I dont think I have ever won one by simply playing ABC.
And one of the disadvantages of playing the higher quality tournaments is that I cant pick and choose my opponents. Sometimes I look around a table and just know its going to be tough with no weak players to exploit.
When I do have a serious go at cash, at whatever level I choose to come in, I will certainly follow the good example set by the top guys and pick and choose my opponents as carefully as I can. And trust me, if a James or a Lolufold or quite a few others join me at the table I will have no shame at all. You wont see me for dust ! !
As for playing the game for the games sake, I dont yet enjoy cash enough to simply do that. Far more likely to enter an insignificant little tourny and try a few moves, or often play a PLO8 tournament for £1.
Another thing i did was i sometimes loaded a 30p scary STT to fill my need for action, not always great for your game though. This meant i was content with raking in small pots in the cash without hurting my BR.
Cash is all long term. You have to look at how much you win over one week/month/year to get excited about the money,
Also I think there is decent money to be made at 30nl. I'm not going to talk numbers, but I think playing it full-time would make a decent wage. Better than what mcdonalds would pay anyway lol
As several have said, its best to start smaller and work your way up. Jumping in at the deep end could be very costly.
A couple of years ago I played a few big tournaments with a friend ( who is not a particularly good player) watching over my shoulder. He got me to justify every decision to him, and to explain what had happened when I made a mistake. Huge benefit to my game ! I would probably need someone more experienced to watch me at cash.
If you have followed this thread from the start you will have seen that I have played cash on 3/4 tables at 15/30 each night this week. The problem has been that I have done it after playing tournaments each day. I have no doubts I can beat this level, but obviously it was more important for me to play perfect poker in the 220 biggie last night than it was at this cash level. So where should I go from here ?
But he's right, there is alot of money to be made at that level if your're willing to put the time in.
Wont last much longer though it will start getting harder soon I reckon.