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Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?

edited April 2011 in The Poker Clinic

Villain is v good for this level, he has 3 bet me at least once before in this session and I just folded.

Dont think he will be getting out of line against me too much.

My image is kinda spewy, but again he wont expext me to get too out of line either really, especially pre flop.

I think flatting the 3bet oop is ok 120xbb deep.

I flop "the nuts" on a dry board and he c bets, I expect him to have an overpair at this point,or maybe 10's...he might check behind with 2 overs then outplay me on the turn and/or river as he seems to do everytime.

The board is dry, can I try to come across as spa zzy again, and c/r big, maybe convince him I have TQs or something? or is my only real option here check call and try to c/r the turn?

I hate to see an A or K on the turn though as it could kill my action.

How do you get paid in spots like this?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
22kend22 Small blind  £0.15 £0.15 £12.74
Dons1983 Big blind  £0.30 £0.45 £40.25
  Your hole cards
  • 9
  • 9
     
blackbeltb Fold     
DOHHHHHHH Raise  £1.20 £1.65 £35.53
baker123 Fold     
Ozzie08 Raise  £3.00 £4.65 £37.65
chunky123 Fold     
22kend22 Fold     
Dons1983 Fold     
DOHHHHHHH Call  £1.80 £6.45 £33.73
Flop
   
  • 5
  • 9
  • J
     
DOHHHHHHH Check     
Ozzie08 Bet  £4.00 £10.45 £33.65
DOHHHHHHH
«1

Comments

  • edited March 2011
    you say he doesnt expect you to get out of line pf then you say you are trying to convice him your calling 3bets oop with Q10? 

    if hes good and his 3bet range is pretty tight im not sure you should be calling pf oop here i think its marginal, as played i think all 3 options on the flop are fine, on that board i would lead out or chk/c then make my turn decision based on the next card and how he plays in 3bp
  • edited March 2011

    Yeh I do go nuts sometimes post flop and do stupid things. Oz will have seen me do stuff like that 40/50 times in the past, played him loads.

    Looking back though I don't think the board is wet enough this time .......
  • ybyb
    edited March 2011
    If you have a balanced donking range on boards like this I like leading, if not then I'd probably c/c unless your image is super spewy vs him.
  • edited March 2011

    I think has has an over pair,so i am flat calling and check raiseing the turn....by then you will have enough to min raise the turn bet and have at least £40 in pot with him at less than or equal to half the pot and he will be pot committed....
    ( i assume he makes 3/4 size pot bet as per flop) but it does stink of AK 
    just my thoughts....

    my maths , i may be wrong....


  • edited March 2011
    As you know JJ, Ozzie is imo the best player at these levels and very much doubt that he would see you as spewy - he will know that you have "moments" but he also knows your solid so don't over think things against him.
    Bleurgh, I probably check call and re assess on turn if I were you but if you think he has an over pair then 3bet the flop and build that pot because I do think if you check call the flop it may look suspicious to him especially because he will know that you arent calling a 3bet oop v him light. 
  • edited March 2011
    do some checking followed by some calling
  • edited March 2011
    c/r areen and level him into calling off w overpair.
  • edited March 2011


    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    c/r areen and level him into calling off w overpair.
    Posted by pryce6
    c/ring to stack an overpair in a 3bet pot sounds really really bad
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : c/ring to stack an overpair in a 3bet pot sounds really really bad
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    explain...

    I'm fairly sure Doh just shoved here, and I don't hate that play at all.
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:

    Think this all depends on your image dohhhh if he has seen u floating pots before then call then
    c/r turn as he will surely fire out again on turn if he thinks u are floating, if u have check raised a lot before against him then do just that, if he has an overpair all the money goes in, you have to have a good memory though think what you have done in the past against this player you need to also check before hand if he is multitabling etc. if he is and he is a TAG he is more than likely just playing ABC poker at this point then I am just calling, let him value bet the turn and then make the move, what was the result of the hand?
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : Think this all depends on your image dohhhh if he has seen u floating pots before then call then c/r turn as he will surely fire out again on turn if he thinks u are floating, if u have check raised a lot before against him then do just that, if he has an overpair all the money goes in, you have to have a good memory though think what you have done in the past against this player you need to also check before hand if he is multitabling etc. if he is and he is a TAG he is more than likely just playing ABC poker at this point then I am just calling, let him value bet the turn and then make the move, what was the result of the hand?
    Posted by pokarito
    Hey, thanx for posting your first post on this thread :)

    I must have played more hands with this villain that probbaly any other villain on the site.

    He knows I'm a winning player, but he also knows I'm capable of doing stupid things. Sometimes I've made moves against him at the wrong time, likewise I've made big folds against him at the wrong time.

    He is deffo up against me overall, probably one of the few players at this level I would say is better than me.

    However, in the main, he knows I'm normally pretty solid, and I had shown no signs of tilt/spew so far this session, so he probably thinks I'm gonna be playing straight forward. 

    He was playing loads of tables, he always is, but he can still mix it up in the right spots.

    I have floated him loads before, but not out of position very often, if at all. It just doesnt make sense to do that v him when theres so many fish around, so If I just c/c oop on such a dry flop, I think he will get suspicious straight away.

    I have c/r sets alot in the past, If I c/r the flop I have to lead the turn, as he will exercise pot control with QQ-AA I think unless he improves.

    If he has AK/AQ, which he could, and I c/c the flop, he will fold or check behind everytime on the turn I think, then value bet the river if he's got there. I don't think he c bets AQ/AK though.

    If I c/r and he has anything other than JJ-AA, he folds anyway.

    If I c/r all in, I don't think he folds AA/KK, and he could fold QQ, he's good enough to do that, but it's not gonna be easy for him, so if he can, then gl to him.

    I did c/r all in for the above reasons. I put him on TT-AA, and maybe AK, but AK shuts down on the turn/river anyway, so I went for max value from QQ/KK/AA. Also, he has never seen me play a set this way before, over thousands of hands. So although it's not going to work long term, I thought it might work one time until he susses out what I'm up to. 

    He called, and had top set!

    TYPICAL !


  • ybyb
    edited March 2011
    do you c/shove with AJ/TT/QQ here?
    how often do you c/shove with a bluff on this type of board vs him?
  • edited March 2011
    I've never c/s v him ever......

    Similar to the tommyD hand on TV that time, it's a new move for me really, played lots with both villains and neither will have seen me do anything like this before.

    But if I did it v you would you really fold QQ-AA?
  • ybyb
    edited March 2011
    If you did it on that board in a 3b pot when I hadn't seen you do it before over thousands of hands then yes I would.
  • edited March 2011

    Ugh, spose.

    But wouldn't you call the first time to see what it meant? All the time people say on here "you're not repping anything so it's normally a bluff"

    What am I reppin by shoving here? "Would I really do this with a set?????"

    There should be a Newtons law for poker. every move has an equal or opposite counter move. 

    I don't think I've ever done anything right!!! loooooool :(
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : explain... I'm fairly sure Doh just shoved here, and I don't hate that play at all.
    Posted by pryce6
    if we have a set in a 3bet pot vs a good reg on this board it should be a given that we stack an overpair, so i would be trying to get the most value out of his non pair or weak pair hands
    so by calling we let him bluff and value town himself with Jx

    if you are going to raise the flop, i actually prefer minraising the flop rather than shoving
  • edited March 2011
    @lol_raise and YB ,  whats your thoughts on calling pre here with 99 118bb vs good reg oop?  how deep would you want to be and does the size of the pair change your thoughts and why?
  • edited March 2011
    i think its fine considering we opened to 4x and the 3bet is on the small side (10x)

    99 plays alot better postflop than say 22, we can flop more 4card straights/gutterballs and also have better equity vs his Ax/Kx bluff 3betting cards
  • ybyb
    edited March 2011
    yeah with the size of the 3b I'd still be calling if 100bbs deep fwiw.
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : if we have a set in a 3bet pot vs a good reg on this board it should be a given that we stack an overpair, so i would be trying to get the most value out of his non pair or weak pair hands so by calling we let him bluff and value town himself with Jx if you are going to raise the flop, i actually prefer minraising the flop rather than shoving
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    yeah I get that completely. But no matter how good villain is this is nl30 and people don't 3bet light that much at all.

    I actually think he is much more likely to fold to c/c flop, c/r turn if he has an overpair.
  • edited March 2011
    thats why id just check call 3 streets
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    thats why id just check call 3 streets
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    yeah I would rather do that than c/r turn. I wasn't saying I would c/r allin, but given Dohs description and his image to the villain it can never be bad to mix it up sometimes? When he pushes in a spot like this the last thing going through Ozzie's head is a set...
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    i think its fine considering we opened to 4x and the 3bet is on the small side (10x) 99 plays alot better postflop than say 22, we can flop more 4card straights/gutterballs and also have better equity vs his Ax/Kx bluff 3betting cards
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    ok cool makes sense, would you call with all pps here or would you have a cut off?
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    yeah with the size of the 3b I'd still be calling if 100bbs deep fwiw.
    Posted by yb
    ok thanks, if you miss your set whats the worse board you prepared to check call the flop with?
  • ybyb
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : ok thanks, if you miss your set whats the worse board you prepared to check call the flop with?
    Posted by N1CK
    its player dependent, but against a TAG I'd be c/cing on most Jxx/Txx boards etc. and obv when we have an overpair still. Thats why I like c/cing better than c/ring here, because we rep a lot wider than just a set when we c/c the flop. As he's good we can assume he will be betting 3 streets with an overpair anyway.
  • edited March 2011

    Are you not worried that a Jack, king or ace could slow him down on the turn though?

    When right now, there's not much at all stopping him from stacking off w/QQ-AA.

    I did say earlier that he doesn't cbet AK/AQ here all the time, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesnt.....and if he cbets AK/AQ and gets a call, he's unlikely to put much more in the middle anyway without binking.
  • edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in?:
    In Response to Re: Mid set oop against V good TAG reg in 3bet pot - How to get the money in? : its player dependent, but against a TAG I'd be c/cing on most Jxx/Txx boards etc. and obv when we have an overpair still. Thats why I like c/cing better than c/ring here, because we rep a lot wider than just a set when we c/c the flop. As he's good we can assume he will be betting 3 streets with an overpair anyway.
    Posted by yb
    do you think most TAGS play pretty straight forward in 3 bet pots so if they cbet jxxx with AK they give up on a blank turn as it misses their range and its hard to rep and it wont change much that you call the c bet with?
  • edited March 2011
    ok jj, i have been playing ozzie for about a week now on 2/3 tables and i must say he has a) tightened his range pre and most def been getting out of the way post flop with too much action. i think he is playing more tables than norm 128 instead of 86 lol. slowly slowly catchy monkey i think with this hand mate.   phil
  • edited March 2011
    c/c, c/c, c/c. Even if he doesnt bet the river it makes your range a lot stronger vs him in these spots and hes less likely to bluff you so you get cheaper showdowns.
  • edited March 2011

    i would donk bet here and get in on flop, cos its pretty dry ozzie and any half decent reg will think ur bluffing and re-raise u. if they have overpair they prob stack of no? also worse sets maybe 2 pairs?

    donk bet is good way to get paid i thought?

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