Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.

AMYBR

7 handed NLHE 50p/£1.

Pretty loose table, bought in for £100 had A's cracked early and I'm down to about £62.  Not tilted, just waiting for a spot to get my money in and double up or rebuy.

Actions folded to button who makes it £2.5, I make a pretty spewy call in the SB with Ks4s, BB calls behind me.  Both sat around 250-300BB's deep, to my 60ish

£7.50 in pot, flop comes out 5s6s10h.

Personally I dont especially like leading out with a draw 3 handed sat shallow as it limits your options if you get raised (allin/fold).  I prefer to check, maybe taking the free card, check calling or check raising allin if i sense weakness.

I check, TAG checks donut bets £3, I call expecting to go to the turn HU OOP.  TAG player check raise to £15, donut calls without even thinking.  I can only go allin or fold with £57 behind and £40 in the pot.  TAG player definately knows this.

I take my time, trying to work out if this is a good enough spot and run the numbers.  TAG looks at me and says "What have you got..32...35%?"  He knows my game pretty well, and I respect his. 

I just decide he's not betting 1pr, in all likelyhood he's flopped his set or has maybe Axs, making any percentage I give myself pretty dumb.  I end up deciding there are weaker players to pick up pots from and fold.

Turn comes 5s6s10h Ac.

Tag checks, donkey bets £32, TAG makes it around £75, donkey insta mucks.  I know TAG does not have an A, check raising there then hitting the A just doesnt sit right, not even A10, as he'd have 3bet the LP raiser Pre.

Tried my best to get the hand out of him but he wouldnt budge.  Totally got the sense that he hoped donkey hit the A.  What would your instincts put him on?

N1CK

if you call with that garbage and flop that 3handed then erm.....check call shove no brainer

AMYBR

Normally I'd agree but I have a golden rule that if a solid opponent calls your range within the hand you should run for the hills.  He not asking "have you got", he's really saying "I hope you've got".

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Normally I'd agree but I have a golden rule that if a solid opponent calls your range within the hand you should run for the hills.  He not asking "have you got", he's really saying "I hope you've got".
Posted by AMYBR

what did you call pf for then? what was your plan? what was you hoping would happen? just get it in

AMYBR

TBH was just hoping to go to the flop against the donkey, K4 likely being the best hand, if not pretty confident I can take the pot by the turn.

Again TAG player is very very good.  We tend not to collide too much, as honestly speaking we are the better two players at that table.  He knows I have a hand, yet he still check raises two players, then calls out my odds.  He wanted action.  I think I can shave down my outs CONSIDORABLY at this point.  I'm not just doing my stack despite all signs pointing in the wrong direction.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

TBH was just hoping to go to the flop against the donkey, K4 likely being the best hand, if not pretty confident I can take the pot by the turn. Again TAG player is very very good.  We tend not to collide too much, as honestly speaking we are the better two players at that table.  He knows I have a hand, yet he still check raises two players, then calls out my odds.  He wanted action.  I think I can shave down my outs CONSIDORABLY at this point.  I'm not just doing my stack despite all signs pointing in the wrong direction.
Posted by AMYBR

well if hes good and knows your game he might want you to fold and get hu vs donk so his hand might not be that great, why would he tell you he has a set if he think you will fold? i think shoving could be ok

AMYBR

In the end I think I put him on Asxs.

It did occur to me the goal was to isolate against the donkey, however he knows his bet sizing only leaves me jam or fold.  Plus he knows hs hand has to be strong enough to showdown vs donkey as he was a calling station also.

Just taking everything into account there were easier, better spots.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

In the end I think I put him on Asxs. It did occur to me the goal was to isolate against the donkey, however he knows his bet sizing only leaves me jam or fold.  Plus he knows hs hand has to be strong enough to showdown vs donkey as he was a calling station also. Just taking everything into account there were easier, better spots.
Posted by AMYBR

there are always better spots than k4soot

grantorino

buy in to cover the donkey

your call pre is really bad 60bb deep imo, especially as tag will call with any 2 getting like 4/1 deep with the fish. i prob just c/r on flop, as played idk I prob gamble and shove having got there this way

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

buy in to cover the donkey your call pre is really bad 60bb deep imo, especially as tag will call with any 2 getting like 4/1 deep with the fish. i prob just c/r on flop, as played idk I prob gamble and shove having got there this way
Posted by grantorino

i thought about c/r flop but would it be better to call and try to keep TAG in to get better odds?

grantorino

not sure nick, if I play this way pre though its cos Im in the mood to gamble it up so when I flop like this I'm looking to stick it in 

AMYBR

TAG wont pay if spade falls, he already knows I'm holding two spades.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

TAG wont pay if spade falls, he already knows I'm holding two spades.
Posted by AMYBR

yeah agree the implied odds arnt great vs him but it gives him the option to call and sweeten the price or to sense weakness and gives him another option

AMYBR

Also my read was that he held the superior spade draw, so If the spade does fall, I'm drawing dead and am going to have to come up with a fold, which I no isnt likely to happen, hence the fold on the flop.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Also my read was that he held the superior spade draw, so If the spade does fall, I'm drawing dead and am going to have to come up with a fold, which I no isnt likely to happen, hence the fold on the flop.
Posted by AMYBR

i dont know how you can put him on one hand, he can have 78 89 79 spades here

AMYBR

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.
Posted by AMYBR

well how does he play sets, 2pair, weaker fds, straight draws the hands n1ck mentioned?

Also, and Im not having a go at you, if you are going to post hands where you stick villain on one particular hand and are utterly convinced of that read you dont need our advice on how to play it.  Hands that are so heavily read based just dont transfer well to a forum

I have no idea why you are so convinced of this read, esp since you didnt seem so sure in your first post. Its an unusual dynamic with stacksizes, personally I wouldnt be so sure he raises the fish with a bare draw this deep if he is good, especially given the direct and implied odds he has, and I certainly dont see why you think its the only hand he plays this way

N1CK

In Response to Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

7 handed NLHE 50p/£1. Pretty loose table, bought in for £100 had A's cracked early and I'm down to about £62.  Not tilted, just waiting for a spot to get my money in and double up or rebuy. Actions folded to button who makes it £2.5, I make a pretty spewy call in the SB with Ks4s, BB calls behind me.  Both sat around 250-300BB's deep, to my 60ish £7.50 in pot, flop comes out 5 s6s10h . Personally I dont especially like leading out with a draw 3 handed sat shallow as it limits your options if you get raised (allin/fold).  I prefer to check, maybe taking the free card, check calling or check raising allin if i sense weakness. I check, TAG checks donut bets £3, I call expecting to go to the turn HU OOP.  TAG player check raise to £15, donut calls without even thinking.  I can only go allin or fold with £57 behind and £40 in the pot.  TAG player definately knows this. I take my time, trying to work out if this is a good enough spot and run the numbers.  TAG looks at me and says " What have you got..32...35%?"  He knows my game pretty well, and I respect his.  I just decide he's not betting 1pr, in all likelyhood he's flopped his set or has maybe Axs, making any percentage I give myself pretty dumb.  I end up deciding there are weaker players to pick up pots from and fold. Turn comes 5s6s10h Ac . Tag checks, donkey bets £32, TAG makes it around £75, donkey insta mucks.  I know TAG does not have an A, check raising there then hitting the A just doesnt sit right, not even A10, as he'd have 3bet the LP raiser Pre. Tried my best to get the hand out of him but he wouldnt budge.  Totally got the sense that he hoped donkey hit the A.  What would your instincts put him on?
Posted by AMYBR

has he got the ace or not?????????????????????

N1CK

i dont know this villian but surly he has a set/tons of draws/pair+draw/ not just one hand

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

I've played against this guy for about 2 years, maybe once twice a week.  I'd say with confidence I have a better read on his range than perhaps you would.  Also how he'd approach a certain draw.
Posted by AMYBR

im not being rude but this arrogant attitude is why you suck so much ;-)

AMYBR

Again, your making huge assumptions based on nothing.  I never asked for an evaluation of how I'd played, if i should have jammed, lead out or folded.  I asked for opinions on TAGs holdings.

You say your not being rude but your clearly are.  You have this superiority issue, maybe it makes you feel good to be critical and rude, who knows.  ANY poker player knows that any given hand is accompanied by huge amounts of player context and reads, stating your POV dogmatically, then just plain being rude about another player that you know very little about really is just bad form

What you percieve as arrogance is me just stating a simple fact.  If you were familier with a player that i wasnt, I'd pretty much take it for granted that you had more in depth knowledge on his game than I did.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

In Response to Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow. : has he got the ace or not?????????????????????
Posted by N1CK

I'm unsure, either low set or Asxs.  He either didnt need the A, wasnt scared of it or made a Asxs hand.  Hence the thread.  Was curious as to popinions on Tags holdings, given action.  Not my play.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Again, your making huge assumptions based on nothing.  I never asked for an evaluation of how I'd played, if i should have jammed, lead out or folded.  I asked for opinions on TAGs holdings. You say your not being rude but your clearly are.  You have this superiority issue, maybe it makes you feel good to be critical and rude, who knows.  ANY poker player knows that any given hand is accompanied by huge amounts of player context and reads, stating your POV dogmatically, then just plain being rude about another player that you know very little about really is just bad form What you percieve as arrogance is me just stating a simple fact.  If you were familier with a player that i wasnt, I'd pretty much take it for granted that you had more in depth knowledge on his game than I did.
Posted by AMYBR

i gave them to you, you start his range pf then try and narrow it down street by street looking at how it plays, but i stopped at flop because by some divine intervention you could be 100% sure he had Ax and nothing else

what concerns me the most about this hand is why are you calling a button raise by a fish with k4 oop with a good player left to act?

AMYBR

Not 100% sure, just worried enough not to put my money in there.  If he'd kept his mouth shut i'd have put myself on 9 flush cards and 3 overs to the board, jammed regardless.

But he saw me doing the math.  He knows my game I know his.  Just speaking from my own experiemce, that type of table talk normally only comes when an opponent percieves themselves as being so far ahead they subtly goad their opponent.  He felt very comfortable calling my outs, WHICH PROBABLY MEANT THEY WERE NULL AND VOID.  If he puts me on 2 spades that he doesnt want to draw against, that player will keep his mouth shut.  If he has two spades that he himself wants to draw to, as in your 67/78 comment he likely just flats.  He certainly does not call my outs comfortably in the hand.  He likely only calls them if he is not concerned by them.  So I was veering from Asxs or set.  So just not a great spot to put my stack in I thought.

I'm fully open to being wrong.  There is a chance he was simply isolating as you mention earlier, as he knows I dont flat with a strong or weak hand ( I raise the weak hand for info, raise the strong hand for value). he knows this.  So just wanted perceptions on his likely holdings given seen action on that board.

grantorino

he felt comfortable calling your outs cos you spent ages dwelling up and counting them. Who does that with a set and <60BB behind with 40 already in. I really dont know why he cant have loads of other hands than nfd and sets. Whats he doing with 2pair? Tsxs?

N1CK

i wouldn't go for two chk/r with set 5/6 i would hate to give free cards that beat me, and a check raise on the turn with a weak ace suited or not dont seem great either if he hopes the fish has an ace too....dunno maybe he did have 78 spades

AMYBR

2 pr did occur to me.  I didnt sit there for ages doing the math.  As I'm sure you guys do, I know them instinctively.  You guys play live alot or just online?

Often your brain knows pretty much where you are, it just takes awhile for your mind to accept it and move forward.  This was one of those times. 

Perhaps I did overanalyse, but I trust my instincts.  If he had check raised and not said a word I play my odds/implied odds and jam regardless of outcome.  It was the speech that threw me i guess. 

He knew I wasnt considoring calling, only shipping or folding.  The speech just made him seem so eager for the action.  The guy rarely speaks in a hand.

I guess As10s would have been a nice hand there though.  This guy doesnt give much away, the fact his speech was calm and out of character was the issue.

AMYBR

Bit more to the story, I asked for a river rabbit hunt and it came a Q, I asked him if it would have been good.  He goes down the "I dont remember" route. Were not friends, but we often grab a drink afterwards discussing some of the action.  To my mind he's the best player there, to his mind I am, so it makes for interesting analysis.

He often says I give him too much credit, but I dont believe him   But your right i guess Nick, a raise there with 7/8s is a must.

Just to ask, you must realise I'm not a poker idiot.  I dont play well online for a variety of reasons.  But you must realise that my understanding and knowledge are pretty broad??  Or do you actually think i'm just a clueless numpty?  I have to ask   Keep it friendly. 

N1CK

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

Bit more to the story, I asked for a river rabbit hunt and it came a Q, I asked him if it would have been good.  He goes down the "I dont remember" route. Were not friends, but we often grab a drink afterwards discussing some of the action.  To my mind he's the best player there, to his mind I am, so it makes for interesting analysis. He often says I give him too much credit, but I dont believe him   But your right i guess Nick, a raise there with 7/8s is a must. Just to ask, you must realise I'm not a poker idiot.  I dont play well online for a variety of reasons.  But you must realise that my understanding and knowledge are pretty broad??  Or do you actually think i'm just a clueless numpty?  I have to ask   Keep it friendly. 
Posted by AMYBR

you seem to focus to much on the psychological side rather than the optimal.....i think you need to find some balance

i started off in live poker mtts and occasional cash game then played a bit online and realised how terrible i was...im getting better lol

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow.:

In Response to Re: Semi-Strong draw against TAG and donkey, sat fairly shallow. : you seem to focus to much on the psychological side rather than the optimal.....i think you need to find some balance i started off in live poker mtts and occasional cash game then played a bit online and realised how terrible i was...im getting better lol
Posted by N1CK

Hate to admit it but your very right.  But many of the people I play with play VERY badly, limp calling 6 bigs with J5s oop and such.  So i've had to focus on this aspect to combat it.  Plus others crazy silly bet sizing.

AMYBR

Just wanted to expand upon this last comment.  I play in many FO and cash games where people just play recreationally, and are happy to get alot of money in pre flop with really fiddly hands.  Meaning I have to sit there like a nit till I pick up a hand with real strength.  Mostly their average salary is 4x the highest mine ever was while I was working so psychology plays a real important part.  I'm not happy to put my chips in ahead and flip 65/35 all night long.  There isnt any point as patience pays off against many of these guys.  So I cant just play EV+ spots all night.  (Although I did do this at a lower buy in a week or so ago and ended up  with around 15x my buyin).  But how often are you going to run that good?