50nl newbie - two big pots

YOUNG_GUN

u 2 should get a room

LOL_RAISE

UTG open SB 3bets. thats like the strongest 3betting range there is preflop. i guess utg opens BB 3bets is slightly stronger but w/e.
 
a 'standard' 3betting range here is pretty much going to be QQ+,AK & bluffs.
without history between UTG&SB or SB & urself i think 4bet/calling QQ is going to end up the vast vast vast majority of the time mean u get it in vs KK+,AK which isnt +Ev unless the UTG open is likely to do something super special.

obv theory wise you bet to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold, better hands arent folding, worse hands arent calling/shoving (without history!) so from theory point of view calling would be better however that doesnt take into account playing postflop in big pot with QQ can get quite messy.

CrazyBen23

lol i think it makes v interesting reading from them both

N1CK

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

UTG open SB 3bets. thats like the strongest 3betting range there is preflop. i guess utg opens BB 3bets is slightly stronger but w/e.   a 'standard' 3betting range here is pretty much going to be QQ+,AK & bluffs. without history between UTG&SB or SB & urself i think 4bet/calling QQ is going to end up the vast vast vast majority of the time mean u get it in vs KK+,AK which isnt +Ev unless the UTG open is likely to do something super special. obv theory wise you bet to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold, better hands arent folding, worse hands arent calling/shoving (without history!) so from theory point of view calling would be better however that doesnt take into account playing postflop in big pot with QQ can get quite messy.
Posted by LOL_RAISE

so whats the best thing to do if everyone is good? call or fold? and is 4 bet the worse option?

LOL_RAISE

depends on how you define 'good' like nl400+ regs on the main sites good? then id 4b/c. but if you mean decent nl50reg on sky fold/call prob isnt much difference

N1CK

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

depends on how you define 'good' like nl400+ regs on the main sites good? then id 4b/c. but if you mean decent nl50reg on sky fold/call prob isnt much difference
Posted by LOL_RAISE

i know they are both raising from the strongest positions but it is 6max were i think utg strength is over rated lets face it its middle position really..... but obviously you have to bear it in mind.....what in your opinion is like a standard utg open range for decent nl50 sky regs?

yb

call and let the villain carry on bluffing, he is terrible

seriously though I think calling is best without history between you two

N1CK

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

call and let the villain carry on bluffing, he is terrible seriously though I think calling is best without history between you two
Posted by yb

say it was you here utg so you open sb 3bets bb calls what hands in your utg range do you call and what do you 4bet?  this is also to lol raise

yb

it depends, against most regs who I think are paying attention I'd be happy 4b/cing with QQ+/AK. Once there's a coldcall from the bb I'd probably peel in position with like 66/77+ (assuming 100bbs deep).

TommyD

If I may wade in.

QQ hand, as played obv have to call after that bet size.

If our only read being that we know the villain is a good player I might be 4bet folding here.  We're cold 4betting and if anything over representing our hand.  And we get shoved on.  Read-less and without direct history this will be a bad call more than it's a good call.

I don't hate the peel but I don't like it.  I really do not like calling 3bets and not closing the betting, it's just so spewy.  However I have to balance this with our hand strength, position on the 3bettor and the likelihood of the original raiser folding.  Still, the more I consider it the more I dislike it.  There are so many bad flops we can easily spew more dead money here.

With reads and if I noticed Hurst may be a little 'excited' I'm snap calling.  I really respect Hurst's game but he, like a few of us myself included, can get a little spewy and shovey when we shouldn't be.

But Nick's point about people making mistakes is a very good one.  That the main way you make money, not by being capable of playing 'perfect poker' but by just making less mistakes than our opponents.

Thinly veiled brag time, you probably will see an example of this on TOPT this week (the villain hasn't been in this thread, and at least it should squeeze out a hand I butchered into a bloody pulp against Lol_Raise this week, still having nightmares about that one...).

yb

4b/folding is by far the worst option imo

TommyD

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

4b/folding is by far the worst option imo
Posted by yb

Even readless other than 'player is solid,' when our 4bet is a cold 4bet and the villain has shoved on us?  Playing as shallow as we are here I admit it's close between 4b/f and 4b/c but we are so rarely in decent shape.

But as I stated, with session reads in this spot it's a call.

scrumdown

hurst gone aipf hes got kk or aa

splashies

Some great posts here RE QQ hand. Obv in this case i have 4-bet too big so i have to call. But the debate in general is fascinating and i guess it shows there is a fine line between what is + or - EV.

grantorino

Nick, utg opening range may not be that tight, but his continuing range after being 3bet is generally very tight, hence SB 3bet value range is narrow (and he very rarely bluffs against utg). Obv I'm generalising here, but this is what I would expect of decent 50NL tags

Tommy D, 4b/f might be more +EV than 4b/c, but if so the fact we have QQ doesnt matter, we are turning 3rd nuts into a bluff which sounds pretty bad to me when no better hand ever folds

TommyD

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

Nick, utg opening range may not be that tight, but his continuing range after being 3bet is generally very tight, hence SB 3bet value range is narrow (and he very rarely bluffs against utg). Obv I'm generalising here, but this is what I would expect of decent 50NL tags Tommy D, 4b/f might be more +EV than 4b/c, but if so the fact we have QQ doesnt matter, we are turning 3rd nuts into a bluff which sounds pretty bad to me when no better hand ever folds
Posted by grantorino

Conversely with the situation as set out in the OP but with a smaller 4bet size by calling the shove we are turning 3rd nuts into a bluff catcher as his range is polarised to KK+ and bluffs.  That's not exactly great either with the conditions as laid out in the OP.

yb

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots : Conversely with the situation as set out in the OP but with a smaller 4bet size by calling the shove we are turning 3rd nuts into a bluff catcher as his range is polarised to KK+ and bluffs.  That's not exactly great either with the conditions as laid out in the OP.
Posted by TommyD

so what exactly does 4b/folding small achieve?

LOL_RAISE

fwiw after i said i think fold/call is close a page back i realised that calling is prob way better but i cba to change it. i dont like 4betting here with QQ at all, were gonna be ip against the 3better postflop and oop to a guy who is going to play super straight forward (i.e setmine pairs call big cards and 4bet KK+)

N1CK

In Response to Re: 50nl newbie - two big pots:

fwiw after i said i think fold/call is close a page back i realised that calling is prob way better but i cba to change it. i dont like 4betting here with QQ at all, were gonna be ip against the 3better postflop and oop to a guy who is going to play super straight forward (i.e setmine pairs call big cards and 4bet KK+)
Posted by LOL_RAISE

yeah this is want i wanted to hear also the sb is never really going to get out of line with us and utg behind, but if utg gets out of the way the sb will have to turn all of his range that we beat into a bluff on high flop boards because are hand should be pretty face up to him if we just flat pre....thoughts??