JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack

Dudeskin8

My history with villain so far has been two times I've raised in position they have reraised me, once was a smallish reraise but I had QJo so decided to give him credit than about 1 orbit later raised with A2s on button it made it 220 folded again. Players don't usually realise there's a raise buttton in these comps so to be reraised twice did set alarm bells off.

Then at last I though I've got a hand I can fight back with but do I ?

Dudeskin8	Small blind		15.00	15.00	4445.00
weemallet	Big blind		30.00	45.00	5460.00
	Your hole cards	J J
X	Raise		420.00	465.00	4940.00
FULLDECK	Fold
NFFC23	Fold
TopMan12	Fold
Dudeskin8

pod1

thats one ell of a raise by x pre!! do you want to go to war here? do you want to put him on back foot and take it to a flop by small reraise? will he put it down if you do? are you thinking of jamming? just want to know your thoughts at this stage?

grantorino

I am jamming, looks like a maniac you should be in good shape here. If he has better, theres always other tourneys, also take a note

rancid

shove it in
if he shows you bigger pr then ok

looks like marginal or mid pr - or AA
Most of the time your good here v this crazy guy

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

thats one ell of a raise by x pre!! do you want to go to war here? do you want to put him on back foot and take it to a flop by small reraise? will he put it down if you do? are you thinking of jamming? just want to know your thoughts at this stage?
Posted by pod1

I'd say I wouldn't really like to go all in as that just seems a bit wreckless and raises the common 'what do I get called by that I beat' And at this stage I've invested nothing in the pot which also makes me think is it worth it.

Overall though I would just feel slightly cr ap if he snapped off with like AQ/AK and hit - yes I know that's a bad call that I want him to make overtime yadda yadda but it still sucks.

Just for the record can I call here and hope for a low flop or is that too weak ?

grantorino

against this guy I expect him to call with loads worse, I doubt hes folding any pair and he could call with 83o. There may be an argument for a small raise to allow him jam  as he should do this wider than call a shove, but if he flats it could get awkward

I dont like flatting, if I did Im not necessarily giving up on an overcard

DeucesLive

hmmm... bit ugly

don't particularly like calling this deep out of position, might do in position.

3 bet weak? He may rejam over the top leaving you with a real tough decision, and you still don't have any real information as to whether he's a complete donk (actually, you know he's a donk already by his 14x open, but you don't know if he's a donk with big hands or a standard allin with K10s monkey).

3 betting allin- probably the best of these three options? But, this deep, it's a really big move- if you get called, you're in bad shape almost always I think. You're turning jacks into a bluff here, which means best case scenario is you net just under a 10% stack increase- really not a big deal at this level. 

Last option is folding- tight with jacks perhaps, but I don't mind it here. By the looks of it he'll be donating his chips before long anyway, and I don't think there's any need to get involved. QQ+ and I'd be going for the 3bet to around 1100 with intention to call a jam.

pod1

i was thinking around the 1400 mark, if he flats im thinking he aint that strong and see what the flop brings. i cant/wont fold to an ubber agg donk with jj, on the other hand i dont wanna go allin for the same reason duds has put. think this is flop determined. if he goes over the top pre i can still get away. 

N1CK

i would fold

pod1

can i ask why nick? would you in a cash game as well?

grantorino

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

i was thinking around the 1400 mark, if he flats im thinking he aint that strong and see what the flop brings. i cant/wont fold to an ubber agg donk with jj, on the other hand i dont wanna go allin for the same reason duds has put. think this is flop determined. if he goes over the top pre i can still get away. 
Posted by pod1

no way Im 3b/f JJ to a guy who has shown very aggro tendencies and opens to 14BB. This is the worst option imo

DeucesLive

in cash I'd be far more likely to flat and evaluate the flop, but readless I wouldn't be getting out of line. No overs and I'd probably be getting it all in, one over and I'd have a think about it.

Reads are ridiculously underrated, and ridiculously easy to get on most people- as soon as someone makes a stupid bet like that, you know they fall into one of two categories- making random maniac plays with any two cards, which means you get involved as long as you have something decent, or making gross overbets with AA/KK, in which case you get out of the way as fast as possible, or call with good AA busting hands and implied odds. But until you've seen them turn over a hand in which they've done that, you have no idea which.

Until you have that read which tells you what you're up against, no need for you to throw away money on guesswork, especially with a hand as vulnerable as jacks. These players will give their money away as soon if you play them right.

pod1

ob i am wrong here, and its good to see how better players would play against a lunitic in the situation. my thinking was if he has done this on 3 orbits 3 times, either i am gonna have his chips or someone else is. the reason i thought a 3 bet in this situation would be good was a) to make him think twice about raising my raise on future hands and b) to see how strong he really is. like i say if he shoves back over the top, i can get away, and if he flats we can reasses on the flop. ob villian dependent and under normal play  i wouldnt be contemplating this, but villian isnt playing standard poker and with jj i would be prepared to take a stand against THIS type of player.

DeucesLive

Last two times were reraises though. In those spots you could perhaps flat and see what happens, since you have a chunk invested already.

If you have nothing invested and someone opens for 14x, that's an unorthodox play to say the least, and no need to get involved. 3b/folding is a bad option in my book, far too high an outlay- it's virtually a 4bet fold by the size of the opening raise, in fact even more. You're chucking away around 25% of your stack on a preflop bluff essentially- just no need for it, especially if he's the sort of maniac who'll come back over the top with some random hand, forcing you to lay it down.

DOHHHHHHH

Just a call for me and let him hang himself on good flops.

He's likely to spa/zz on all flops, and we're really deep stacked, if it comes A K x fold and use your 150xbb stack to progress in the tournament. 

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : I'd say I wouldn't really like to go all in as that just seems a bit wreckless and raises the common 'what do I get called by that I beat' And at this stage I've invested nothing in the pot which also makes me think is it worth it. Overall though I would just feel slightly cr ap if he snapped off with like AQ/AK and hit - yes I know that's a bad call that I want him to make overtime yadda yadda but it still sucks. Just for the record can I call here and hope for a low flop or is that too weak ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

I think if you call then your going to be facing a big bluff bet on the flop so .... jam
His pre raise just makes no sense, he will probably be calling with a mid pr or KQ.
If you go in ahead then that is good, you have to race sooner or later and why not take this spot v a craxy who may snap your jam with 10's. If he shows you a bigger pr then make a note of his pre play and say good luck in the future with scary bets like that and you get no action ....

shipdchips

Hi Dude

Your playing with a 148-BB stack no need to be playing 14x poker here in S/B let this one go, if you flat which I hate and wiff the flop you will be facing a 600 bet on the flop tough spot.

If you 3-bet to say 1,275 which is far better then flatting you still have 105BB but you have asked the correct question imo.

But would still need more information on villain before making my decision       

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : I think if you call then your going to be facing a big bluff bet on the flop so .... jam His pre raise just makes no sense, he will probably be calling with a mid pr or KQ. If you go in ahead then that is good, you have to race sooner or later and why not take this spot v a craxy who may snap your jam with 10's. If he shows you a bigger pr then make a note of his pre play and say good luck in the future with scary bets like that and you get no action ....
Posted by rancid

This is more reason to flat right?

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

can i ask why nick? would you in a cash game as well?
Posted by pod1

its early in a mtt and some players open  huge with big hands jj+ AK so they dont get lots of calls and go multiway , if i shove here im only really expecting to get called by better and hands im racing , 14bb gain is not going to improve my tourny equity a great deal, erm...ok the guys been busy 3bettin a couple of hands but it dosnt mean he is a loon, i just dont feel putting my mtt life a risk this early with a pair of jacks is how i want to play

i dont really play mtts and im not giving advice am just giving my opinion

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : This is more reason to flat right?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Yes & no
He could be doing this crazy raise with Q10s, so you flat a Queen comes on flop.
What you going to do now, lead and get jammed on ? Check and he bets ?
Flat is fine i guess if you can play the streets v this crazy guy and get him to lead when a 10 high flops comes and he got Q10s.
I am just not playing  this hand OOP v this crazy.
I would jam and the majority of the time he will be calling with a hand I am beating.
Yes the minority of the time he has played his big pr very unorthodox.
Given the fact this is a deepstack makes his play even more like a donk play rarther than a reverse AA overbet. If it is a overbet with the intention of making you think he got mid pr than it's good play or bad play loosing value in the long run.

V any crazy player I am going with my intial instincts and jamming, where the majoirty of the time in my experience the jam gets a fold or call from a mid pr/Ace rag

grantorino

Dude has villain opened before? or openlimped?. Also are there players at table likely to playagainst 14BB raises with mediocre hands?

I can see merits to most options except 3bet/fold

Fold - We have nothing invested, he may do this only with monsters. However this seems unlikely given history, and I'm not sure we can find many "better spots"

Flat.- This keeps all his random rag hands in, but I expect a big bet on any flop, so if you are going for this option grab on to your balls and you are calling at least 1 street and will have to call down a lot imo

3bet/call- Allows his random bs to shove, disadvantages he nearly always stacks us with monsters, we sometimes get to flip, also i doubt he ever folds when he opens this big and if he flats I think we usually have to be prepared to go broke

Shove- We usually have the best hand, and I think he calls with all pairs Ax in his range. Again we valuetown ourselves against monsters, flip sometimes and may fold out his really bad hands

3bet /fold. The min we could make it is about 35BB (I think this is too small tbh), if he flats there is ~70 BB in pot and we will have 115 behind if he flats, which will make putting any more money in and folding pretty tricky. Also I dont think we can fold if he shoves it will be 115 into ~ 185 and I dont think we can fold with those odds readless except that his sizing is wierd and he's aggro pre

Dudeskin8

Well I ended up flatting mainly due to feeling dirty folding Jacks pre and got this 'lovely' flop and bet.

Dudeskin8	Small blind		15.00	15.00	4445.00
weemallet	Big blind		30.00	45.00	5460.00
	Your hole cards	J J
X	Raise		420.00	465.00	4940.00
FULLDECK	Fold
NFFC23	Fold
TopMan12	Fold
Dudeskin8	Call		405.00	870.00	4040.00
weemallet	Fold
Flop
		9 3 A
Dudeskin8	Check
X	Bet		870.00	1740.00	4070.00
Dudeskin8

Glenelg

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:


The Ace scares ME now. I'm def folding. He's prob got set?

DOHHHHHHH

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuk

Check, sigh, fold.

cost u 400 to potentially win 5k on a low board, they do exist.

ul

grantorino

call, what part of his range do you expect to check there?

rancid

haha u check he bets pot

if your going to flat pre there you need to lead the flop whatever comes

IRISHROVER

 it was a easy fold ,
to early to deep ,

your game needs to tighten up a little dude ,
i have watched you in ds games ,
your a good player .
but can go better .

DOHHHHHHH

You don't need to lead flop.

If you c/f the flop you played it fine.

you've "gambled" 500, assuming that you get his stack (or at least a pot sized bet) on a  flop that's J high or lower.

It's about 45% to have a flop with no A K or Q.

500 to win 5k at just above even money, say 13/8..... (or even 500 to win 1k if he only fires 1 street)

It's a good bet!!!!

dw about it, check/fold hope u find a better spot before someone else does.

No point having a deep stack if you aren't gonna use it!

grantorino

Doh, how do you reckon we win 5K when the flop is lower than Jxx. You think we cant get it in pre, but yet this guy is auto going to spew away  140BB with a pair of tens or worse? Doesnt make sense to me

DOHHHHHHH

He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history.

The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop.

We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit?

Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

Doh, how do you reckon we win 5K when the flop is lower than Jxx. You think we cant get it in pre, but yet this guy is auto going to spew away  140BB with a pair of tens or worse? Doesnt make sense to me
Posted by grantorino

im still scratching my head at the 500 to win 5k statement