JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history. The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop. We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit? Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

 what history? the guy 3bet twice

grantorino

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

He's just gonna spew away whatever comes, given the history. The pot sized bet was expected no matter what came on the flop. We're 43% to have an over-pair I believe? Therefore 43% to win 870 for a 460 (or w/e) investment is fine and will show a profit? Flatting pre just to win a flop psb even if he shuts down turn and river is fine.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

1 If the pot size bet is expected why do you want to fold?
2. How do you know we are ahead when the flop is low
3. What if the turn is an overcard and he keeps firing
4. Again, what in his history makes you think he spews postflop? We are spewing if we flat pre to fold over 50% to a 100%cbet
5. Are you really comfortable calling off 140BB postflop with JJ on any low flop with the limited reads we have

DOHHHHHHH

1) - Coz we aren't gonna be happy to get it in on 43% of turns. We would have been happy to get it in on 43% of flops.

2) I wouldn't know I was ahead, but I'd be much happier getting it in on  T high (or lower) flop than I would pre flop.

3) Chances of an overcard on the turn r really low, and we wont have to sweat a river as we can c/r all in on the turn given stack sizes and his bet sizing. If an overcard comes it sucks, but what can ya do? Bad cards are gonna come no matter how you play it.

4) Well what else am I supposed tot hink given the history? He's a maniac, there's loads on sky like this.

5) Yes, absolutely delighted to get it in. - I reckon he had 77, a red un and a blue en.

grantorino

1. I dont get this

2. The same hands we are behind pre we are still behind and they are never folding. Ok we are better off against AQ,AK,KQ but there are few hands that improve enough to stack off that wouldnt stack off pre that we are still ahead of

3. Fair enough although call/call/call would prob be a better line imo if he is such a maniac. Also why are we ok with an overcard on turn but not on flop?

4+5. He has shown hes aggro and likely a bit of a maniac. He hasnt done anything we know is really bad though. This still doesnt mean he goes broke with worse than JJ postflop. Imo there are lots of hands we beat he is far more likely  to get it in pre with than postflop.

DOHHHHHHH

ACE - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,Q,K all beat us now.

Theres millions of those kinda hands.

My point is I don't mind flatting pre because I'm gonna continue on the flop 43% of the time.

I don't like flatting the flop because I'm gonna have to fold the turn 95.6% of the time, and it's now got to the stage where it's going to severely hurt my stack, if not end my tournament.

I've plenty left, I gambled on a low flop. If it comes I get better than even money on my initial pre flop call, almost 2/1 in fact when he bangs pot.

If he had QQ/KK/AA all along, it's a cooler against this kinda player.

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

ACE - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,Q,K all beat us now. Theres millions of those kinda hands. My point is I don't mind flatting pre because I'm gonna continue on the flop 43% of the time. I don't like flatting the flop because I'm gonna have to fold the turn 95.6% of the time, and it's now got to the stage where it's going to severely hurt my stack, if not end my tournament. I've plenty left, I gambled on a low flop. If it comes I get better than even money on my initial pre flop call, almost 2/1 in fact when he bangs pot. If he had QQ/KK/AA all along, it's a cooler against this kinda player.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

i still dont know how you can state this

DOHHHHHHH

Just look at the size of his open....

He's obviously clueless. I've played here for quite a while now and it's easy to catagorize players, especially in tournaments.

Like a guy I've never heard of buys into my cash game at 30nl with £12 and posts his bb oop UTG.

I've made notes and assumptions about his game straight away. They're nortmally right.

Similar thing here.

Once he opens that size pre flop, he's a plonker, added to the other history of him being v aggressive, I've got enough info to assume he's just a spa/zz who's gonna spew off left right and centre.

I'd probably have skoped him before this hand too if it was a decent sized tourny for me.

stuart376

Folding Jacks here to an agressive guy 6 handed preflop that has raised 14x wouldnt even cross my mind.

3betting to about 1400 and hoping he shoves with worse is the best play imo. i dont think many would flat a 3bet 1/4 of their stack. if he does and its an awful flop for JJ i think you can get away easy enough. just make some notes and move on.

dont mind a shove here either although 3betting i believe to be the better play.

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

Just look at the size of his open.... He's obviously clueless. I've played here for quite a while now and it's easy to catagorize players, especially in tournaments. Like a guy I've never heard of buys into my cash game at 30nl with £12 and posts his bb oop UTG. I've made notes and assumptions about his game straight away. They're nortmally right. Similar thing here. Once he opens that size pre flop, he's a plonker, added to the other history of him being v aggressive, I've got enough info to assume he's just a spa/zz who's gonna spew off left right and centre. I'd probably have skoped him before this hand too if it was a decent sized tourny for me.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

in the early stages of these sky mtts when all the soft money is still around i dont think its that bad of an idea to make ridic huge opens with monster hands even more so when better players are more than happy to stack off pre  here with one pair of jacks

DOHHHHHHH

He's much more likely to be trying to win a 5 hour deepstack in 20 minutes in my experience - trying to win every pot.

Again this is where skope stats would come in.

I'm happy to check fold this flop with 4.5k chips left at 15/30. A mere flesh wound !

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

He's much more likely to be trying to win a 5 hour deepstack in 20 minutes in my experience - trying to win every pot. Again this is where skope stats would come in. I'm happy to check fold this flop with 4.5k chips left at 15/30. A mere flesh wound !
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

im not arguing with this all im saying i dont think the op has given sufficient information for you to justify he is a lunatic, all this guy has done is 3 bet twice in twelve hands and one of them was to a button raise to a guy that is prolly opening a lot of hands based on the hands he said he had

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

You don't need to lead flop. If you c/f the flop you played it fine. you've "gambled" 500, assuming that you get his stack (or at least a pot sized bet) on a  flop that's J high or lower. It's about 45% to have a flop with no A K or Q. 500 to win 5k at just above even money, say 13/8..... (or even 500 to win 1k if he only fires 1 street) It's a good bet!!!! dw about it, check/fold hope u find a better spot before someone else does. No point having a deep stack if you aren't gonna use it!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

The fact that he is going to fire if you check the flop does it not make sense to lead out and rep first what this craxy is going to rep. Checking the flop is justing handing the pot over to him.  At least if he calls or raises you know your beat rarther than just check/folding the flop which seems a bit of weak play. Ok the lead may be spewy againts a good solid regular but v this crazy is not the best move?

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : in the early stages of these sky mtts when all the soft money is still around i dont think its that bad of an idea to make ridic huge opens with monster hands even more so when better players are more than happy to stack off pre  here with one pair of jacks
Posted by N1CK

I was thinking the same thing, but try it and everyone folds anyway and bang you feel like a plonker )

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : im still scratching my head at the 500 to win 5k statement
Posted by N1CK

DOH is talking about implied odds given that fact this guy is crazy and may hand over the rest of his stack on a 10 high board or something similar like a AJ3 board.

DOHHHHHHH

If we lead the flop we're probably bluffing. 

Or building the pot for him to bluff the flop or just call and take it away when we have to check the turn & river.

Bluffing a maniac isn't a good idea. 

AMYBR

Only read the OP, but this is how I like to play BIG pairs early, hoping someone is dumb enough to call and hit part of the flop.  Better to have one big caller than 6 little ones, leading to the outdraw.

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

If we lead the flop we're probably bluffing.  Or building the pot for him to bluff the flop or just call and take it away when we have to check the turn & river. Bluffing a maniac isn't a good idea. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Given that fact this guy is crazy :S I am not going to expect a float from him. If he calls then I am done with the hand. He could be floating but more likely he would have ace rag.
But I do agree bluffing into a maniac is not a good idea but sod it I am betting 780 on this flop )
V you DOH would c/f for sure

rancid

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

Only read the OP, but this is how I like to play BIG pairs early, hoping someone is dumb enough to call and hit part of the flop.  Better to have one big caller than 6 little ones, leading to the outdraw.
Posted by AMYBR

What percentage of the time do you get action if you raise between x8 - x14bb

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : What percentage of the time do you get action if you raise between x8 - x14bb
Posted by rancid

 early in theses sky mtts i would say around 90% (being conservative)

AMYBR

Have to agree much of the time.  Weaker players stacks are highest blindswise relative to total stack stack at the start of MTTs.  They perceive they have all these chips left to play with if the hand goes south, over valueing many marginal hands.

AMYBR

Also it has to be remembered that people will think/ approach things differently.  Most people would approach the bet size in the OP (the 3 bet raise) with a 4 bet allin or fold decision mentality.  But there are many people who'd be happy to call and play from the flop onwards, with far less than the J's holding.

N1CK

what is the buy in for this double stack mtt?

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

what is the buy in for this double stack mtt?
Posted by N1CK

£2.20. And its a Deepstack - start 5k chips.

N1CK

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : £2.20. And its a Deepstack - start 5k chips.
Posted by Dudeskin8

whats the general standard of play like in the early stages? like if i open shoved AK UTG for 5k am i likely to get snap called by AJ sooooted?

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack:

In Response to Re: JJ in SB facing 14x raise from UTG early in deepstack : whats the general standard of play like in the early stages? like if i open shoved AK UTG for 5k am i likely to get snap called by AJ sooooted?
Posted by N1CK

I'd say there is about a 5-10% chance of getting someone who would make that call but a lot of the time most people won't go crazy unless they have a very good hand.

In this spot of course it's a stupid UTG raise but sometimes players know they'll get a 4,5-6x called multi way so think getting one opponant is better.

Dudeskin8

Well he had Q9o, note to self stop being owned lol