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He knows you have to have a hand here yet still three bets you. It was a serious error on his part. That "Put him to the test more" was meant for pre flop hands. I've seen you fold AK to him, from a standard three bet, I just dont get it. You push everyone else around, pick up the largest pots the nights I'm there yet you AVOID HIM LIKE THE BLEEDING PLAGUE!! It just doesnt make sense. Why be fearless of all but 1 guy?? Anyone else there you 4bet EVERYTIME, but you likely fold face up. Its does not make sense.
Truly any other player I wouldnt. We have some history, pooling our funds playing $50 MTT's together online (not colluding - playing joint. I felt he'd balance out my game a little.) before I branched out on my own.
Didnt like the idea that he thought I'd slowrolled him. Think his game is going backwards.
It makes perfect sense bud, you answer it in your post. I do go out of my way to avoid him like the plague simple. He is the one player at the table that I dont feel like I have an advantage over. Ordinarily I know his 3 bet range is significantly stronger than the others. I like to take the path of least resistance, frankly speaking , he isnt it.
I'm going to be watching over the next few weeks to see whats going on with him.
But either way "bud", you probably benefit more than anyone from my good runs, so I'd appreciate a little less grief.
Fine your a living Legend, I dont know how your not as successful as you dream of being..its an injustice of galactic proportions
OR
If you shut down your obsessive brain, took some BR guidance.....took any guidance instead of dismissing it out of hand you may get the success that you probably are good enough for!
You know its true mate.
Why are you shoving over 3bet if you think "tag" has at least 2 pair?
I actually said I thought he was stepping out, with modest holdings. I'm not calling £65, then folding to a creative bet IP, ie he jams 1st to act on an unknown turn card.
I'm in or out on the flop.
When he grumbled post hand I said that was the type of hand he'd need. But given action up to that point I cant put him on any real hand other than a low set which I wasnt buying, plus he's played dubiously for a while.
Why raise the c-bet? I dont understand the question tbh, why wouldnt I? I need to see where my hand is, I still have a player to act. If I flat and 3rd player flats behind, I go to the turn with no more information than I had on the flop. I take control of the hand, which is a big part of my game. I'm sat deep enough that raise folding to serious action is more beneficial than flatting three streets, if I come to the conclusion I'm behind.
I know you said you thought villain was weak then you said "so when he 3 bets me the least I can really be putting him on is 2pr". I'll take that as me misreading what you meant though, and thats just you talking to him so whatever.
As hand played out you played it perfectly, not sure your reasoning is correct though
Ok you flop TPGK on pretty dry board. Guy cbets, you think he is weak. You raise? Why? He usually folds, it makes it easier for villain to fold worse hands behind. You can raise with read one of them continues with worse more often than better, fine, but that doesnt seem to be your read before hand, and if they are behind there are few bad turn cards for you so I think flatting is better
When TAG cold 3bets you his range crushes you, you have some sort of read that says he is weak and you go with it, which is fine imo. It depends a lot on how he views you and with your penchant for shoving draws shoving may well be best, but calling with those stacksizes is a valid option too, especially in position.You should do whichever is most likely to get his stack in, if you flat get it in on any turn.
I have no idea what you mean by taking "control" of hand but if villain flats behind you are good vast majority of time. Raising is only good if you are ahead of the range they continue with, which with reads you have in this hand seems unlikely to me. Gaining initiative can help, but not at the expense of inflating the pot against a range we are a dog against. Same goes for information, theres no point paying for it if the info it gives you is you are beat
In answer to your early question if it is HU pot I may flat. But the two guys in the pot likely percieve my flat as strength. I can see your POV completely, but I am happy to inflate pot here, against a range of hands. But most importantly for me, I want information.
Example being I flat to extract value on later streets, as it seems you suggest, BB flats behind me. So pot would stand at £34.5. Meaning if weak opener opens again he opens for a bet in the range of £22, but most likely is in check fold mode after two calls, But say he does open again, (which he wouldnt) -holding 6-s- the pot gains momentum and potentially is difficult to manage, especially as theirs a player behind, which I have no more information on at the turn than I did at the flop (if I flat). Any raise I make at the turn is subject to the player behind, who clearly has more than two napkins after calling a bet and a call.
Without the moderate raise on the flop, I cannot put the player behind on a hand. I need to know the acton I'm likely to face. The raise on the flop produces this cheaper, by far than the raise on the turn., plus I DO NOT GIVE THE FREE/CHEAP CARD. I do not believe in this in any way shape or form.
As the hand is played I somehow draw in the weaker K, I 'm folding in an instant in his spot.
Your are completely right in your comment that his 3 bet crushes me in most instances. But utterly wrong in your comment about my penchant for shoving draws. I assume your conclusion for this comes from the shallow shove with 86, and advice given in other thread to 5c8c. Sat deep, for reasonable stakes, utterly different.
I didnt put him on 2pr or a set, for once I didnt really put him on any concrete hand I wasnt beating. The 2pr comment (as you say) comes from the post hand analysis, where I said that was the hand he OUGHT to be betting.
Your last comment. If we dont raise we have no indication of where we are in the hand going to the turn against two opponents. I do not make a habit of needing to fade two players outs to win a pot. You talk of inflating the pot when potentially being a dog in the hand. Without raising (asking the question) we dont know if we infact are the dog, leaving the only option being paying off three streets of value to set/2pr/AK. The moderate raise, cheaply on the flop adds an extra bet that gives the information we need heading into later streets, but adding value against bad calls with the weaker hands.
As always there are more than two ways to skin a cat. I'm not playing this hand slow vs two opponents. The extra bet adds value, adds info, protects against unseen draws. The flat to induce action just makes no sense to me bud. I understand the approach, just isnt where I opt to take the hand.
Yeah meant to take that bit about shoving draws out, I meant once he 3bets and you decide you are continuing your decision to flat or raise should be based on which is more likely to get his stack across line, a shove may look weaker if he has seen you shove draws before (albeit in different situation)
what info do you gain when either 1 or both villains flat your flop raise (or when they 3bet it)? How many outs do villains have against you? You are ahead of their ranges with TPGK if you raise it should be for value from worse hands
In this event my 4 bet wasnt designed that specifically. When Opponent 3 bets flop I have to admit I'm not fully sure where I am. However If I do flat, I'm pot stuck at turn, but I am in position.
Frankly speaking, if I'm going to make a mistake in the hand I want to make it now. Yes backwards logic. I dont bluff, I dont slow play all but a slim range. The games I play, there's no point, your getting action. Pretty much went with the old online maxim WIDRR (when in doubt re raise).
Beginning to enjoy our banter now
Im not enjoying this banter cos you just dont get what Im saying at all.
Its funny how people accuse me of not listening. Its fine to state your opinion, but just because somebody doesnt see things in the exactly the same way doesnt make them wrong. There isnt only ONE way.
Im going to leave it at that, gl at the tables
Also it's a shame these threads are turning into insulting threads or I am so good or he is so bad.
Like a lot of people I come here to improve my game and listen to all opnions and get good advice from
players playing profitable poker.
What I would say is to the original post is. Do not think all players think about the game the same as you.
What may look like a good jam by you and it should be a easy fold for villian with the range you put him on.
The villian may look upon it like ok i call or snap it, or with the line "Whatever I call"
If you try and figure out what is in there heads and how they play then you can make the right moves.
And if I am playing against a tag then I am not jamming with the hope they will be good enough to lay down a hand unless i have a big draw and it's more of a semi bluff. My read will have to be a massive soul read that this villian can lay down the hand I put him on. Infact a raise would look more like I have you beat rather than a desperate jam. Which is what villian did think you was just semi bluffing jamming.
Like i said share the knowledge we are not all Phil Ivey )
I fully agree with you on some of these threads becoming insulting. I do realise that an element of that blame can be laid on me as I do think slightly unconventionally and take a different approach to many, where certain individuals dont like it and seem to think its ok to simply attack it. But one thing I will say is that all my arguments and counter points of view are well balanced, receptive (mostly) and mature. I have never (and will never) tell someone they are a bad player or simply wrong. I think people really do forget that there are many facets to the game, many levels many approaches. Some have accepted approaches others dont.
Key thing is that rarely do two of the worlds most successful players take the same line. Also that the game itself evolves, standards change and approaches have become cicular. So I do not think anyone has the right to attack anothers approach.
Before I went out last night I'd decided to be less drawn into it, that will be the case.
There are generally a few ways to play a hand and thats what makes this game so argumentative.
Some players see hands in a vacuum while other players just realise if you played that hand that way 100 times it just will not be profitable in the long term.
While you seem like a knowledgable player you may just have to drop the poker ego a bit and take on board what people say about the hands you post and not take it to heart.
No one likes hearing "You played the hand bad" but realising that you did will only make you a better player.
All the best
Your right in what you say, I am border line obsessvie compulsive and do read to much into things far to frequently, plus the issue of misinterpretation of written word.
As I said I accept I'm to blame for a portion of it and am trying to work on it