i need a re-think

The_Don90

Ok i have a problem. With BRM. As many know i was always a tournament player. I felt comfortable playing 99% of players in an mtt. However ive struggled to adapt to cash. I can have many profitable short sessions, Which means i make money.

So i'll take yesterday as a prime example. I sat down on NL4 for 2 hours im 2 BIs up. I knew i was starting to do a typical MTT player thing and change gear, so i took a break and done an mtt. That didnt go well. But instead of going back i went and done more. and a few sats.

This is a trypical day for me. Im no longer profitable in mtts as ive forgotten alot of the game i used to have for them, but i still have the mentality for mtts and not cash.

This means worse BRM because its not stable. This means im losing money more and more, and ive gone from a winning player to a losing player.

I know this is alot of stuff going on here in my head, and it probably doesnt make a lot of sense. But can anyone whos went through similar offer advice.

AMYBR

I can only speak for myself bud but cash, as is online cash, is something that I cant crack either.  For the record this doesnt make you a bad or unknowledgable player.  I put up my reasoning for my failures in a thread in the clinic tittled "I think I've got to the bottom of it" a weak or so ago.  I think it might be an interesting read for you.

My skillset online is a strictly tournament only affair.  Just as you say, I run well cash, but it quickly takes a U turn, again the reasoning for this is in the thread I mention.

Funny thing is I crush cash Live, I Just dont read well or even play well online cash.  Mainly to do with my ego and level of belief of others.  I upped my S+G buy in and have been doing pretty well.  Plus I increased buy in and quantity of DYM's significantly and it has payed dividends.  I think if you recognise there is a flaw or element where your weak in your game you can either strive to improve it/fix it or focus on what you know you can beat. 

There are aspects of my personality that make me a horrendous online cash player, it took me a long time to recognise it.  Mainly it was DOH's advice of significantly increasing volume.  But once a flaw is highlighted/recognised, one way or another (by striving to fix or simply avoid), it makes your overall game and confidence in your game all the stronger.

Long story short, I truly believe some people cant adapt their skillset, or may be just better off sticking to their strongest formats.  I'm one of them, I play with a few people who feel the same.  Its not a bad thing.

DOHHHHHHH

1) - Deposit - Whatever u can afford.

2) - Play NL4 and £2 mtts until you have £160. 

3)  - NL8 and £2 mtts until you have £250.

4) - NL10 and shots at £5 mtts when you have £250 until you reach £500.

5) - £500 you can table select 3/4 from the best tables available at 10 & 20nl.

6) - £750 Move up to 30nl, and some 20nl tables using notes to table select.

7) - £1000 you can multi table nl30, play pretty much whatever mtt you want, and withdraw any profit over 1k at the end of every week.

--------------------------------

Don't withdraw anything at all, or play anything you shouldn't until you get to stage 7.

If you keep getting to stage 3/4 then having a blow up, it will be harder to get to stage 7 next time.

Momentum is key when building a bankroll, I say it everytime, If you lose momentum, it all goes wrong.

You should be able to get to stage 2 before the end of the month, and stage 4 before the end of next month pretty comfortably.

------------------------------

V hypocritical comment coming from me, but spend less time talking/planning/messing about and more time playing.

You don't build bankrolls by posting on forums. (When you've built one, you can do what u want lol

The_Don90

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

I can only speak for myself bud but cash, as is online cash, is something that I cant crack either.  For the record this doesnt make you a bad or unknowledgable player.  I put up my reasoning for my failures in a thread in the clinic tittled "I think I've got to the bottom of it" a weak or so ago.  I think it might be an interesting read for you. My skillset online is a strictly tournament only affair.  Just as you say, I run well cash, but it quickly takes a U turn, again the reasoning for this is in the thread I mention. Funny thing is I crush cash Live, I Just dont read well or even play well online cash.  Mainly to do with my ego and level of belief of others.  I upped my S+G buy in and have been doing pretty well.  Plus I increased buy in and quantity of DYM's significantly and it has payed dividends.  I think if you recognise there is a flaw or element where your weak in your game you can either strive to improve it/fix it or focus on what you know you can beat.  There are aspects of my personality that make me a horrendous online cash player, it took me a long time to recognise it.  Mainly it was DOH's advice of significantly increasing volume.  But once a flaw is highlighted/recognised, one way or another (by striving to fix or simply avoid), it makes your overall game and confidence in your game all the stronger. Long story short, I truly believe some people cant adapt their skillset, or may be just better off sticking to their strongest formats.  I'm one of them, I play with a few people who feel the same.  Its not a bad thing.
Posted by AMYBR

Hi mate.

The biggest problem is im not longer profitable in mtts. So thats not an option any more. Cash im making money but im then changing gears as i would have a year or two ago in an mtt.

So ive actually now got no idea where im strongest. Cash but i cant sit for more than 2 hours or lose a BI because the reload feels weird. Or search and re-find that mtt spirt.

I may be misunderstanding your post thouhg.

DOHHHHHHH

......Obv if things go wrong at any stage just drop back a stage until you meet the requirements for the next stage again...

AMYBR

No your understanding it fine thedon, it did occur to me that there was a contradiction in my post as you said you'd kind of lost yoour way MTT wise.  Is this perhaps because of your new focus on cash though?

This contradiction was why i built in the S+G (up to 45 players) and DYM changes I've made.  True MTT's are always high variance.  But the skillset is similar to the (UP TO) 45 seater S+G's than cash.  Sounds like thats where your best game may be.

Just mostly trying to say that no matter what advice your given (no offense to the advice given gents) if the reason that your cash game is unsuccessful is outside of your technical game, then you may be chasing your tail for a while.  Some problems run pretty deep without easy fixes.  So plugging away until those "fringe" issues are dealt with isnt always the best thing. 

Your issues are probably no where near as stupid as mine   I'm not attempting to put a downer on you, its just my honest response.

CrazyBen23

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

1) - Deposit - Whatever u can afford. 2) - Play NL4 and £2 mtts until you have £160.  3)  - NL8 and £2 mtts until you have £250. 4) - NL10 and shots at £5 mtts when you have £250 until you reach £500. 5) - £500 you can table select 3/4 from the best tables available at 10 & 20nl. 6) - £750 Move up to 30nl, and some 20nl tables using notes to table select. 7) - £1000 you can multi table nl30, play pretty much whatever mtt you want, and withdraw any profit over 1k at the end of every week.

Great advice... need patience and disipline of a saint to do that tho lol

mattless

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

1) - Deposit - Whatever u can afford. 2) - Play NL4 and £2 mtts until you have £160.  3)  - NL8 and £2 mtts until you have £250. 4) - NL10 and shots at £5 mtts when you have £250 until you reach £500. 5) - £500 you can table select 3/4 from the best tables available at 10 & 20nl. 6) - £750 Move up to 30nl, and some 20nl tables using notes to table select. 7) - £1000 you can multi table nl30, play pretty much whatever mtt you want, and withdraw any profit over 1k at the end of every week. -------------------------------- Don't withdraw anything at all, or play anything you shouldn't until you get to stage 7. If you keep getting to stage 3/4 then having a blow up, it will be harder to get to stage 7 next time. Momentum is key when building a bankroll, I say it everytime, If you lose momentum, it all goes wrong. You should be able to get to stage 2 before the end of the month, and stage 4 before the end of next month pretty comfortably. ------------------------------ V hypocritical comment coming from me, but spend less time talking/planning/messing about and more time playing. You don't build bankrolls by posting on forums. (When you've built one, you can do what u want lol
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I think this is a bit bankroll nitty for a recreational player. I think you can play 10nl quite comfortably with £100-£150, drop down to 8nl below £100. Once you hit £200 you can play 20nl and £5 mtt and satelites for similar. At£300 experiment with 30nl but mainly 20nl still and the odd £10 mtt even. Beyond £500 and I think its up you but you could easily enter £20-£30 mtts and play a mixture of 30nl and 50nl

DOHHHHHHH

Fair doos.

I speak to Don quite abit and loads of times he's got to stage 3/4 then gone off the rails.

I just think the only way he's gonna get to the stage where he can play whatever he wants is by being really disciplined and strict with himself.

If I were to start again from 40 quid I'd prob be much more relaxed with my game selection.

But I can trust myself to stay away from big sats/mtts/cash shots etc etc.

Not sure Don can.

scotty77

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

1) - Deposit - Whatever u can afford. 2) - Play NL4 and £2 mtts until you have £160.  3)  - NL8 and £2 mtts until you have £250. 4) - NL10 and shots at £5 mtts when you have £250 until you reach £500. 5) - £500 you can table select 3/4 from the best tables available at 10 & 20nl. 6) - £750 Move up to 30nl, and some 20nl tables using notes to table select. 7) - £1000 you can multi table nl30, play pretty much whatever mtt you want, and withdraw any profit over 1k at the end of every week. -------------------------------- Don't withdraw anything at all, or play anything you shouldn't until you get to stage 7. If you keep getting to stage 3/4 then having a blow up, it will be harder to get to stage 7 next time. Momentum is key when building a bankroll, I say it everytime, If you lose momentum, it all goes wrong. You should be able to get to stage 2 before the end of the month, and stage 4 before the end of next month pretty comfortably. ------------------------------ V hypocritical comment coming from me, but spend less time talking/planning/messing about and more time playing. You don't build bankrolls by posting on forums. (When you've built one, you can do what u want lol
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

this.  especially all these threads/ideas for charity/making vids/challenges. 

you should know how to beat nl4 by now.  all thats stopping you is not getting the hours in.

you can only move up the levels if you sit down and play 3/4 2 hour sessions per day.  if you ever feel like tilting, then stop for a bit, make a drink and watch a bit of TV or whatever to cool down.

mattless

I don't know you Don, but it does seem to me that I rarely see you on tables. I have played alot of 8nl and 10nl on here as well as £2-10 mtts of all different kinds. I see a lot of your posts  in the Clinic and elsewhere, both asking and giving advice, you should have a handle on the lower levels by now.

With the right VOLUME and DISCIPLINE therfore moving through the 1st few levels of Dohhhhs plan (or a slightly less nitty one) should be simple enough.

GL at the tables

ZedsDeadBa

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

1) - Deposit - Whatever u can afford. 2) - Play NL4 and £2 mtts until you have £160.  3)  - NL8 and £2 mtts until you have £250. 4) - NL10 and shots at £5 mtts when you have £250 until you reach £500. You should be able to get to stage 2 before the end of the month, and stage 4 before the end of next month pretty comfortably.

Holy Horse vigana batman! I deposited £10 over two months ago now and I've still only got £80!

This has kinda shoved my head up my asre.

I only play cash at 4nl, do you think I should be trying a different format? Sitngo's maybe? Trouble is I find tournament poker so tediously slow.

Z.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Holy Horse vigana batman! I deposited £10 over two months ago now and I've still only got £80! This has kinda shoved my head up my asre. I only play cash at 4nl, do you think I should be trying a different format? Sitngo's maybe? Trouble is I find tournament poker so tediously slow. Z.
Posted by ZedsDeadBa

Zed, i wouldnt worry about it too much. I deposited 8 quid at the end of January and now have 180 quid. Some styles take a bit longer than others.

N1CK

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Holy Horse vigana batman! I deposited £10 over two months ago now and I've still only got £80! This has kinda shoved my head up my asre. I only play cash at 4nl, do you think I should be trying a different format? Sitngo's maybe? Trouble is I find tournament poker so tediously slow. Z.
Posted by ZedsDeadBa

any profit is good profit and its alot better than a high percentage of other players will achieve, keep playing and keep improving your game

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Holy Horse vigana batman! I deposited £10 over two months ago now and I've still only got £80! This has kinda shoved my head up my asre. I only play cash at 4nl, do you think I should be trying a different format? Sitngo's maybe? Trouble is I find tournament poker so tediously slow. Z.
Posted by ZedsDeadBa

Huh?

What???

No!!!

You're doing great, why would you want to change??? Or even think that you should???

ZedsDeadBa

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Huh? What??? No!!! You're doing great, why would you want to change??? Or even think that you should???
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Because you said Don should be able to go from 4NL to 10NL and a £500 bankroll in two months!!!

Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed quite clear in your post.

Z.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Because you said Don should be able to go from 4NL to 10NL and a £500 bankroll in two months!!! Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed quite clear in your post. Z.
Posted by ZedsDeadBa

ive done it before i screwed up and went off the rails rying to play the best on sky. Which i wasnt ready for. i think thats what he means.

ZedsDeadBa

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : ive done it before i screwed up and went off the rails rying to play the best on sky. Which i wasnt ready for. i think thats what he means.
Posted by The_Don90

Ahh, I see, I thought that was a strategy that all new players should be expecting to achieve.

Serves me right for involving my self in your problems ;o))

Cheers,

Z.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Ahh, I see, I thought that was a strategy that all new players should be expecting to achieve. Serves me right for involving my self in your problems ;o)) Cheers, Z.
Posted by ZedsDeadBa

no its kool to ask. I think youve got a pretty neat profit for a tenner. hard to BR build from that small

SALT1R3

I don't have the biggest bankroll myself and was wondering a way to try and build mine. I usually play the £400 BH a few times a week (I know I should up my volume of how many I play but the footy is still on during the week lol!) and finish near the cash every time just about (had KK against AJ off the other night and guy hits a straight but what can you do! ) and came second in one a few weeks back. I enjoy these tourneys now that theres more play to them but I'm not earning much most of the time; just about getting my money back.

I want to try cash at 2/4 and have done it before but been burned (though I only stuck in a tenner every few weeks) so each felt was hard to take and I didn't have the discipline at the time. I feel I'm a much better player than I was back then and now have enough for over 30BI's at that level but don't know whether to try cash to raise my bankroll or stick to these tourneys where I could be playing for a few hours only to break even.

I'm in two minds whether to move to cash. I can afford to loss my complete roll if it comes to that so I wouldn't this time be playing with scared money, but I dunno lol!

Sorry if I hijacked your post a bit there Don but I had to get that off my chest hehe! Gl in rebuilding your roll mate!

The_Don90

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

I don't have the biggest bankroll myself and was wondering a way to try and build mine. I usually play the £400 BH a few times a week (I know I should up my volume of how many I play but the footy is still on during the week lol!) and finish near the cash every time just about (had KK against AJ off the other night and guy hits a straight but what can you do! ) and came second in one a few weeks back. I enjoy these tourneys now that theres more play to them but I'm not earning much most of the time; just about getting my money back. I want to try cash at 2/4 and have done it before but been burned (though I only stuck in a tenner every few weeks) so each felt was hard to take and I didn't have the discipline at the time. I feel I'm a much better player than I was back then and now have enough for over 30BI's at that level but don't know whether to try cash to raise my bankroll or stick to these tourneys where I could be playing for a few hours only to break even. I'm in two minds whether to move to cash. I can afford to loss my complete roll if it comes to that so I wouldn't this time be playing with scared money, but I dunno lol! Sorry if I hijacked your post a bit there Don but I had to get that off my chest hehe! Gl in rebuilding your roll mate!
Posted by SALT1R3

No hassles mate. I think this is an ideal place to post this,

seppe

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

I can only speak for myself bud but cash, as is online cash, is something that I cant crack either.  For the record this doesnt make you a bad or unknowledgable player.  I put up my reasoning for my failures in a thread in the clinic tittled "I think I've got to the bottom of it" a weak or so ago.  I think it might be an interesting read for you. My skillset online is a strictly tournament only affair.  Just as you say, I run well cash, but it quickly takes a U turn, again the reasoning for this is in the thread I mention. Funny thing is I crush cash Live, I Just dont read well or even play well online cash.  Mainly to do with my ego and level of belief of others.  I upped my S+G buy in and have been doing pretty well.  Plus I increased buy in and quantity of DYM's significantly and it has payed dividends.  I think if you recognise there is a flaw or element where your weak in your game you can either strive to improve it/fix it or focus on what you know you can beat.  There are aspects of my personality that make me a horrendous online cash player, it took me a long time to recognise it.  Mainly it was DOH's advice of significantly increasing volume.  But once a flaw is highlighted/recognised, one way or another (by striving to fix or simply avoid), it makes your overall game and confidence in your game all the stronger. Long story short, I truly believe some people cant adapt their skillset, or may be just better off sticking to their strongest formats.  I'm one of them, I play with a few people who feel the same.  Its not a bad thing.
Posted by AMYBR[/Q

Thats why you never listen or take advice when you ask for it and other peoples views are different from what you want to hear when you post on here

AMYBR

Wow very charming attack.  If you took the time to read more you'd see that I'd already discussed this, acknowledging many aspects widely.  I'm even acknowledging it in the thread that your replying to.... so pointing out the obvious much??

Just a really classy low blow, in an utterly needless way.  Very classy bud.

But just to reply, you dont know anything about me.  These are my genuine flaws in regard to online cash that I already fully acknowledge and am aware of.  Also its not that I dont listen, if you again take the time to take a broader view you'll see thats not the case at all.  But your right I dont think in full alignment with others.  Since when has that been a bad thing?  The sum of all poker knowledge does not lie in this forum.  Plus you read any hand in the clinic, ask a variety of fulltime pro's, there will always be hugely different approaches to the game.  But if someone says something I dont agree with, or I cant get behind, then I'm going to say it.

walesboy

Hi Don
If you are trying to increase your bankroll (and who isn't!) and you are able to be a couple of BI's up on cash after a few hours then stop then before you change gears. Not sure why you would change gears if what you were doing previously was working unless the table dynamic has changed. You'll see your BR rise continually and so will your confidence. Hard to do I know, as I've found to my cost more than once!
You know that mtt's have huge variance unless you think it is your play that's not right? I would suggest freerolls but not sure they would help!

walesboy

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

I don't have the biggest bankroll myself and was wondering a way to try and build mine. I usually play the £400 BH a few times a week (I know I should up my volume of how many I play but the footy is still on during the week lol!) and finish near the cash every time just about (had KK against AJ off the other night and guy hits a straight but what can you do! ) and came second in one a few weeks back. I enjoy these tourneys now that theres more play to them but I'm not earning much most of the time; just about getting my money back. I want to try cash at 2/4 and have done it before but been burned (though I only stuck in a tenner every few weeks) so each felt was hard to take and I didn't have the discipline at the time. I feel I'm a much better player than I was back then and now have enough for over 30BI's at that level but don't know whether to try cash to raise my bankroll or stick to these tourneys where I could be playing for a few hours only to break even. I'm in two minds whether to move to cash. I can afford to loss my complete roll if it comes to that so I wouldn't this time be playing with scared money, but I dunno lol! Sorry if I hijacked your post a bit there Don but I had to get that off my chest hehe! Gl in rebuilding your roll mate!
Posted by SALT1R3

There is a bit of variance at nl4 given people's calling/gambling range. If you can do it 2 tabling might be a good way to get yourself into it. You see (not necessarily play) more hands but it also concentrates your mind. It can be frustrating though. 

TINTIN

im struggling with the concept of "changing gears" at NL4. do u mean u are raisning lots and trying to steal lots, if so why?

 if u find this sit out stand, bank ur profit, give it 15 mins find a new table start again

TINTIN

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : this.  especially all these threads/ideas for charity/making vids/challenges.  you should know how to beat nl4 by now.  all thats stopping you is not getting the hours in. you can only move up the levels if you sit down and play 3/4 2 hour sessions per day.  if you ever feel like tilting, then stop for a bit, make a drink and watch a bit of TV or whatever to cool down.
Posted by scotty77

top advice, this is what i try to do 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

im struggling with the concept of "changing gears" at NL4. do u mean u are raisning lots and trying to steal lots, if so why?  if u find this sit out stand, bank ur profit, give it 15 mins find a new table start again
Posted by TINTIN

Boredom I think.

Don dreams of GUKPT final tables, WSOP main events, bracelets and millions of $$$.

So even though he's 4 buy ins up within an hour, quadroupling his BR in the process, it's just not enough!!!

"Coz there's a GUKPT sat in an hour for 3/4 of my br and I'm gonna win it all!!!" lol

TINTIN

get ur mind focused on what u are playing, there aint no quick way to do it thats why they call it the grind.

im no great shake at this game in fact many will describe me as a poor player but heres how my weekend went,all at NL4

got £15 cash for points bonus on friday, i had 0 balance before this as i havent deposited anything this year coz im out of work, previous i took a freeroll win of £5 into £50 n withdrew it then £1.10freeroll win into £70 and done the same, both since start of april, the reason i got my CFP bonus . anyway 

friday- started 3 tabling playing super tight till i got in front, kept 3 quid back incase of accident, big hands get paid at this level, punish the others and bet big when uv got it, eventually got the balance ticking over, played 4 sessions totaling about 9 hours and had reached £45.

Saturday- spent the £5 on a few wee bets for a little interset on tv so began poker with £40,started 4 tabling and played much the same quite tight ABC poker, i will admit i ran well for most of the day until my last mini session where i lost a couple of buyins before winning them back, in total i played for 12 hours turning £40 into £90, my bets never came in so i won about 12 buyins in 12 hours.

sunday- now this was a grind, day started slowly but after some early losses i got it back and moved on, hit the £98 mark but no further, took a few hits towards the end and ended the day showing a 26p profit after another 12 hours

monday- grinded the day out in min sessions again got up to £115 before i ran into a golden child and a great deal of bad luck ended the day after 11 hours up £10 at the £100 mark. played about another 12 hours

Tuesday- i know its not the weekend anymore but i had decided i was withdrawing £80 n keeping 20 in so i played about in the afternon and turned the 20 into 40 so that gave me a nice withdrawal figure of £100 which i done, i left in £20 which has been reduced to £17, im for a few days off before i start again.

this has been a bit long winded and can look like a bit of a boast but what im trying to show is that you need to put the hours in to get results, mini session of 2-3 hours short break then start again, if u find u have built a stack n starting to donk some of it off then stand and find a new table n refocus. it took me over 50 hours to build up £100 and also got another £15 coming next month CFP. have a cllear mind to make the most of the sessions, remember you wont show a profit for every session as no matter how well you play u can be done by bad luck, 

Building a roll from NL4 can be done and if u are prepared to put in the volume, tables and time

TINTIN

In Response to Re: i need a re-think:

In Response to Re: i need a re-think : Boredom I think. Don dreams of GUKPT final tables, WSOP main events, bracelets and millions of $$$. So even though he's 4 buy ins up within an hour, quadroupling his BR in the process, it's just not enough!!! "Coz there's a GUKPT sat in an hour for 3/4 of my br and I'm gonna win it all!!!" lol
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

theres his problem, forget big dreams for now, if he serious about building a roll on cash then stay away from tourneys, 

pomfrittes

 Hi Don, was good to meet you on Saturday(even though i didna ken WTF you were saying half the time,LOL)

 You have been given some excellent advice here m8, especially Scotty 77 and Doh. PLEASE TAKE THIS ADVICE.

 I would also like to add, and please take this in the spirit it is intended :- DONT TAKE YOUR EGO TO THE TABLE.

 It can be easy to sit at NL4 and NL8 and build your stack up quite quickly but it is what you do once you have acvhieved this that is the root of your problem. You should be either leaving that table and moving to another,cos there are plenty to choose from, continue playing the way you have played or log off NOT choosing to try and change gears as you put it when i think what you really mean is that you will try and outplay inferior players with little or no regard for the luck element.

 Anyway m8 GL with it and as Scotty says concentrate on playing and forget the other distractions.

  

 p.s. I know i am no great player(no patience) myself but i deposited $150 online in Jan 2007 and have not deposited since which is ok for a recreational player who plays every night of the week.