NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long)

Glenelg · May 2011

GREAT post!
I'm now going to lock myself away in a room for 2/3 days with a large notepad, a six-pack, NO mobile/TV/pooter etc.and try and get it all into my tiny poker brain! lol.

I suppose that's one of the reasons we all enjoy (most of the time!) poker, you're learning something everyday?

Pad

Sky_Dave · May 2011

DOHHHHHHH has mail.

DeucesLive · May 2011

Already told Dohhhh via pm, but this is a fantastic read- I was actually planning on putting together a similar document once I'd managed (hopefully, anyway) to double my roll and finish with NL4, and the notes I had in my head were almost word for word what he has here, only he's put it a lot clearer and more concisely. The only things I would perhaps disagree on are hand selection- I'd probably bet AJ+, KQ and TT+ as value hands, his opinion regarding low to midstrength pairs is absolutely spot on- either raise smaller or perhaps even open limp, these hands are ones that play better postflop multiway in low pots, you don't want to overinflate the pot with hands that miss the flop so often.

The only things I would add he was planning on adding anyway, but wanted to limit the size of the document somewhat, I didn't want to step on any toes but he said it was fine to post thoughts in here and welcomed the input. So, one of the things I think is most pertinent to NL4 above all other levels-

Stack Sizes and Player Type

At NL4, you can learn a huge amount about your opponent just by their stack size. Note- some of these apply only to what they buyin for, whereas others apply to what they have when you join them. Here's a list of the most common stack sizes I've noticed at NL4, how they play, and how best to combat them.

The Freeroller- 93p

How to spot them

This is a player who has most likely just cashed in a freeroll, and is looking to gamble a bit- spin up their little cash, or just have some fun with it.

Freerollers tend to buy in for some random amount, like £1.08. They will rarely ever be on more than one table, and fall into one of two categories- quietly blinding away by limp/folding, or shoving allin first opportunity. Don't confuse freerollers with a player who's sat already with a random amount- they could be a shortstacker, or someone that's just lost a big pot, or anything. Only classify someone here if you specifically see them buy in for a random sum.

How to combat them

Call with reasonably big hands, simple. Freerollers are one of the biggest problems in NL4, because they cause you all kinds of grief when you play too loosely against them. Don't make the mistake of forgetting there's other players at the table- always keep in mind the action before, and who remains to act afterwards.

Example- you hold KJ UTG+1. UTG shoves with his 80p he just bought in for. KJ figures to be well ahead of his quite wild range, so you could call. But with 4 players behind, KJ is in sorry shape if someone decides to come along- so folding is harmless. You'll have better spots to get involved, if someone else stacks him first- never mind. Another one'll be along in a minute.

Now, if UTG shoves and you're in the BB and it's folded to you, I think this is a call. He shoves with more than enough random kings+jacks compared to AK/AJ/AA/KK/QQ/JJ to make this totally profitable- his range is probably any two. With no one else involved in the hand, you can profitably get involved in a spot where your hand is good more often than not.

Whatever you do, don't get pulled into calling TOO light with freerollers. KJ is about the bottom limit- I fold A2 against them, for the simple fact that a lot of hands dominate us, and we're crushing basically nothing. Two big cards is better than one big one small here, so I call with probably A9+, KJ+, 88+. A wider range than I'd open with, but not horrifically wide. And with the marginals (88/KJ/A9) I only call if a) the shove is for less than £1, and b) there's no one else left to act.

The Maniac- £13.40

How to spot them

Maniacs play a lot of hands fast and aggressive. They tend to build big stacks, or blow them. If you see a player sat at a table with £8+ they fall into one of two categories normally- maniac or reg. You HAVE to distinguish between the two, fast. Key giveaways that your player is a maniac;

Open shoves for 100bbs+

Raises large in more than 50% of pots

Has a large chipstack

Shows down poor cards in a big pot

One of these alone doesn't fully give away your player- you have to get 2 or 3 signals to really label him. Most unknowns with a large chipstack are simply maniacs who will give it all back if you do everything right.

How to combat them

Play tight, aggressive poker. If they're a maniac, they're probably bad and won't notice you and will carry on playing the same way against you they do everyone else- horribly loose, and horribly aggressive. Wait till you have a big value hand (AQ+, JJ+) and then spike them with a solid reraise preflop. Until you've seen what they show down, or they do it more than once per orbit, NEVER call a 100bb+ shove from them without QQ+. It's very often a donk shove with AA or KK, and not worth taking the risk until you know that. If you see them donk shove with 62 or something, make a note and call them a tad wider next time. But I still wouldn't be tempted to go any lower than AJ at bare minimum.

Don't bluff them. This goes for most players at NL4, but especially these guys- they're nutters who throw chips around for fun. Wait, get a solid hand, and stack them. Be prepared to take a nasty hit if they do suckout on you though- I wouldn't get involved with a big stack maniac unless you have the stone cold nuts, or are rolled enough to wade through variance.

Pro Shortstacker- £1.60

How to spot them

They tend to buy in for £1.60 exactly, on multiple tables. If they buy in on only one or two tables, they're probably a standard NL4 fish, where everything JJ said in the op applies. If they're on multiple tables, they probably specialise in buying in small. They tend to play very tight, very aggressive, and it's hard to get any change out of them.

How to combat them

Don't get involved with them. Leave them be, when they enter a pot- be very, very aware of their range and play a very small range of hands (AK/JJ+). You could maybe throw AQ in there too. If you do play back at them, do it preflop when you're probably ahead. The implied odds when you're against a shortstacker are so small that it's simply not worth playing speculative hands against them, or getting involved with them at all- they won't enter many hands, and won't do you much harm- so just carry on playing against the softer NL4 players.

The Reg- £4

How to spot them

The reg is, as the name implies, a regular NL4 player. It's fairly simple- if they're buying in for the full £4, across 3 or more tables, they're probably a reg. Don't confuse reg with good- it doesn't necessarily hold true. Some regs are actually really bad- because they don't adjust to the better players. Don't fall into this category. Regs quite often have stacks of £8+, and if you see one with that across multiple tables- they're probably pretty good. Don't get involved with them.

How to combat them

Again, identify your player before getting involved. You have to know whether they adjust to good players or not. Until you know better, err on the side of caution- you don't lose anything by tightening up against them.

Top pair top kicker is a stack against most NL4 fish- it's basically the nuts. Against regs, it shrinks up- a lot. If you recognize they're good, they probably recognize the same about you- that means your stackoff range needs to be 2 pair+, and board dependant. If they start getting really aggro in a hand, it's probably because they have 2 pair or a set themselves, so you have to be VERY aware and be prepared to fold hands you'd stack off with against a fish.

Some regs treat you the same as the fish. Make sure you note them, and adjust accordingly. If they're willing to stack against you with second pair, let them. Widen your range slightly. But be aware- if you're playing them regularly, chances are they might start to adjust to you.

In short, you can play 'real' poker with regs. Metagame comes into it, table image- you're playing against someone who understands the game. You can bluff them a little, c-bet a little- but just bear in mind, when they get really shirty it's probably with something legit. For that reason, I prefer to steer clear of any regular player- there's plenty of fish in the sea, no need to go chasing a shark.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hope you don't mind me posting this here Dohhhhh, again- fantastic read, fantastic thread. Really good stuff, you should write poker articles tbh.

Prop60 · May 2011

In Response to NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

Excellent stuff. Thanks Dohhhhhh

YOu should call yourself "the plumber" - you've plugged my leaks!

Now to make a note against all the names on this thread in case I see them at the micro-cash tables:)

silentbob · May 2011

Thanks DOHHHHHHH & Deuces. I've recently gone back down to nl4 due to an horrific 6 months & I'd totally forgotten what it's like.

A real good read & some great pointers.

grantorino · May 2011

nice post deuces, 1 thing though, why do we want the nuts to stack v a maniac

Also where is the SPF(standard passive fish) who limps and calls lots, calls down with any pair, any draw only raises big hands? Is it because he has no particular stacksize? they usually dont top up anyway

DeucesLive · May 2011

that's just your regular NL4 reg, I should have mebbe mentioned them. They kind of appear at every level though, they're nothing special- and yea, they really don't have a particular stacksize, they come in with all kinds of amounts.
As to the maniac strategy- I mean mainly tighten up preflop, and only get involved postflop with a solid part- raise preflop with AK, fold postflop if you don't hit your ace or king. Raise preflop with JJ, be very wary on an AK5 board.
Here's an example from my earlier session playing a guy who fits the maniac description to a T.

I'd seen him raise a few times preflop, so I don't put him on much- when I get a nice value hand, pump it right up. Flop is as ugly as it gets for me, but I have position which is nice- no need to inflate a pot where I may well be drawing to 3-6 outs. Turn changes nothing, and at this stage I'm more confident he doesn't have an ace or queen. Another check to control the pot.

River in reality changes nothing- unless he happened to be holding J8 (unlikely with me having 2 of them) or 87, I rate to have the best hand here most of the time and can call. It's a slightly risky move, since he may have been slowplaying me, but maniacs rarely slowplay- and I can happily take down the pot.

If I bet the flop or turn here though, he may do something mental like c/r all in. It's a very popular maniac move. I've now got to fold, don't get to see anything, and have thrown away a bunch of chips on a risky and unnecessary bet.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance oregon Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £1.16 Hoppy815 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £2.89 Your hole cards J J lukeyp9206 Fold MICKREID89 Raise £0.20 £0.26 £7.23 breffnilad Fold DeucesLive Raise £0.80 £1.06 £3.46 oregon Fold Hoppy815 Fold MICKREID89 Call £0.60 £1.66 £6.63 Flop A 10 Q MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check Turn 6 MICKREID89 Check DeucesLive Check River 9 MICKREID89 Bet £1.66 £3.32 £4.97 DeucesLive Call £1.66 £4.98 £1.80 MICKREID89 Show 2 7 DeucesLive Show J J DeucesLive Win Pair of Jacks £4.60 £6.40

Maniacs bet, call and raise almost anything. You can call them down a little lighter, but it's best to control the pot on the flop+turn as much as possible unless you have something big- they're easy enough to stack if you wait for the goods.
If you're talking about the line about waiting for the stone cold nuts unless you're rolled- +EV strategy says you should get involved with top pair type hands, but if you have a weak roll, you stand to lose a lot playing these guys- it's a risky way to build a weak bankroll. The above hand illustrates it- I rate to have the best hand more than not on the river, so it's +EV for me. But if you have a weak roll, that's a much tougher call to make- it's too risky a scenario when you have so much easier money to be had.

grantorino · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

If you're talking about the line about waiting for the stone cold nuts unless you're rolled- +EV strategy says you should get involved with top pair type hands, but if you have a weak roll, you stand to lose a lot playing these guys- it's a risky way to build a weak bankroll. The above hand illustrates it- I rate to have the best hand more than not on the river, so it's +EV for me. But if you have a weak roll, that's a much tougher call to make- it's too risky a scenario when you have so much easier money to be had.
Posted by DeucesLive

I cant think of many better spots than stacking off with tpgk against maniacs. Sure you can lose, but you would need a huge edge in the game to pass up those kind of spots

unknown_username · May 2011

Been keeping an eye on this thread. Absolutely outstanding DOHHHHHHHH. Best thread i've seen on here. Deuces has added a nice part too. Great stuff, both of you.

Just one thing. Where was this six months ago when i first started playing poker? Could've saved me a fair bit of money. It took me ages to figure most of this out and now you go and tell everyone! Cheers guys!!

Seriously tho, i think there is advice for most people on this thread. Good stuff.

The_Don90 · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : I cant think of many better spots than stacking off with tpgk against maniacs. Sure you can lose, but you would need a huge edge in the game to pass up those kind of spots
Posted by grantorino

but thats the thing, against these players on the whole we have a HUGE edge

MP33 · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

a good read, hope you havent just made the games harder
Posted by TINTIN

I agree - an interesting read, but it will make it harder for players already playing levelthe more ppl read it

it reminds me a bit of Irishrovers threads about DYM,s - It basically spelt out the optimum way to play them and got read by a lot of ppl which resulted in everyone playing them the same way

DOHHHHHHH · May 2011

I wouldn't worry about this thread making nl4 harder if I were you.......

Theres micro stakes strategy all over the internet, if people want it, they can get it. This is more likely to help the semi-competent players crush the fish even more, rather than help the total fish compete.

Will probably only help 1% of nl4 players on sky, if that. I doubt 1% will even read it.

grantorino · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : but thats the thing, against these players on the whole we have a HUGE edge
Posted by The_Don90

So when are you getting your money in a better spot (not that you should wait for one anyway)? No way we have enough of an edge to pass up these kind of big +EV spots. We shouldnt be passing up any +EV spots anyway, we want to maximise profit.

I think people overestimate their edge in these games. Sure you may be a way better player than the fish, that doesnt mean you can take variance completely out of the game

walesboy · May 2011

great post, both Dohhhhhh and Deuces

The_Don90 · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : So when are you getting your money in a better spot (not that you should wait for one anyway)? No way we have enough of an edge to pass up these kind of big +EV spots. We shouldnt be passing up any +EV spots anyway, we want to maximise profit. I think people overestimate their edge in these games. Sure you may be a way better player than the fish, that doesnt mean you can take variance completely out of the game
Posted by grantorino

I try to avoid 100BB pots with anything less than TPTK against these guys. So thats AK, AQ type hands, AJ is pretty vunrable on a J high flop still. Infact in general Overpairs and TPTK is my stack off min

DeucesLive · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : So when are you getting your money in a better spot (not that you should wait for one anyway)? No way we have enough of an edge to pass up these kind of big +EV spots. We shouldnt be passing up any +EV spots anyway, we want to maximise profit. I think people overestimate their edge in these games. Sure you may be a way better player than the fish, that doesnt mean you can take variance completely out of the game
Posted by grantorino

I'll try and rephrase what I'm saying, I think maybe it was a little muddled.

If you are rolled for the level, you should take every single +EV spot you can. TPGK against a random maniac=+EV.

Note, this only applies if you are properly rolled.

The thing that sets NL4 apart from everything else on this site, is you can't go any lower. It's the bottom of the barrel. If you lose buyins, you can't just drop down to rebuild- it is the bottom. Not everyone can afford to dump 20 buyins down to start up- a lot of people can only really put down £10/20 as their starting roll.

This CAN be built up at NL4 if you play super tight poker.

If you only have 2.5 buyins, then playing against maniacs is just not a safe way to build your roll. You're gambling. Maniacs are totally unpredictable, chuck chips in at will, and could have anything. This is not desirable with a small roll. Yes, when you have TPGK you're ahead of his range- that's not enough. He could have straight draw, a flush draw, a similar pair to give him plenty of live outs, or he could have a set/2 pair/overpair/better kicker to be dominating you. You have no idea what you're up against, and this is bad news for your short bankroll.

Set against this is the sheer army of NL4 standard fish, who play a similar way- limp/call preflop, check/fold with absolutely nothing, check/call with any pair any draw, raise huge with the nuts. That is simple as anything to play against- yes, you can get outdrawn, but they tend to announce with neon lights that they just spiked their gutshot. If you get all your money in before they raise, you're ahead 90% of the time. If they do suck out on you, well- you can't escape variance completely, as you said. But you can sure try to minimise it.

If you do get caught against a maniac, make sure you have a real strong hand. If you're going to go allin, it should be with a bare minimum of 2 pair, assuming you're on a short roll. If you're rolled, all these caveats don't apply- just take your +EV spots and enjoy.

None of this super cagey approach is applicable to the higher limits- because if you're playing this way, you should be dropping down. It's just you can't do that here, and you need to start somewhere.

Norbit · May 2011

This is a cracking thread and all NL4 players should read it and take note.

Thread should be stickied at the top of page.

Seagull158 · May 2011

How much of this applies to NL8?

LOL_RAISE · May 2011

99.999%

DOHHHHHHH · May 2011

I'd of thought most of it.

Alot of it applies to 30nl, lol

Not played much nl8 if any at all though, not sure what the differences would be, if any.

rancid · May 2011

Is this like the longest thread in history

The thing about NL4 is it's full of players who don't know what there doing.

If you want to guess what they are doing then good luck because they don't even know what there doing

Just play solid ABC poker - raise pre 4x 5x - bet when you have it - check/fold when you don't

Fold when you think your beat

don't bluff anyone

There are so many call to fold players (call a raise OOP and then fold to your c-bet)

One thing you need to do if you want to improve at this level is work out what players full into what category.

reg - solid - tight - nit - DON'T PLAY THESE

PLAY ALL THESE

Station

maniac

Likes to bluff on the end

loves a c-bet

maniac open shoves with a9o

super aggroo 10x bb raiser, always 3 bets, 4 bets way too much

aggro - raies all the time, always bets

thinks every bluffs

donk - loves a donk donk donk lead - such a donk - must be a donk- stupid donk play - i want his money

fishy fish i pay anything for my gutshot fish fish

etc.... etc...

Once you start making simple notes then they will help you and you will start to feel comfortable at NL4

Don't start dancing with squeeze plays and floats because the fish don't understand D

The fish UTG+2 has 88 and he ain't folding because thats his front door number

If your new to NL4 good luck and most of all enjoy, it's not a lot of money to loose and hey you should only be playing with money you can afford to loose.

Good luck

rancid · May 2011

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long):

In Response to Re: NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long) : I agree - an interesting read, but it will make it harder for players already playing levelthe more ppl read it it reminds me a bit of Irishrovers threads about DYM,s - It basically spelt out the optimum way to play them and got read by a lot of ppl which resulted in everyone playing them the same way
Posted by MP33

You can't stop players from becoming better, if everyone stayed at the same level Doohhhh would not have put this thread together.

debdobs_67 · May 2011

Imo , with approx 2 years of play at nl4 nl8 and nl10 there is virtually no difference in the play , it just has players with bigger rolls as you go up the levels xx

Richard49 · May 2011

Fantastic advice for those of us who play for fun at the lower levels.

Thanks Dohhhhh

TRIP5 · June 2011

Bumped for excellence

xx

YOUNG_GUN · September 2011

Bumped

Sky_Dave · September 2011

As it's so good, we've decided to immortalise DOHHHHHH by turning his post in to some permanent strategy pages on the website.

Links here:

Beating Small Stakes Cash Games - Part 1

Beating Small Stakes Cash Games - Part 2

Beating Small Stakes Cash Games - Part 3

Lambert180 · September 2011

Yeah brilliant thread Doh, I'd already read it in the Sky Poker School section because you pointed me there recently but I just thought I'd say how great it was again.

Also, to the other people who mentioned it, I wouldn't worry about this helping everyone to get good and 4NL becoming tough, because most of these fish are just playing for a bit of a gamble and never venture anywhere near the forum and never intend to improve their game. These are the people who say it's all luck anyway, so how could you improve your game??

WHOAMI196 · September 2011

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! m8 great thread

so ....."Bump"

Lambert180 · January 2015

Found this earlier to pass on to someone so thought I'd bump it cos it's still a great read.

NL4 strategy from DOHHHHHH (v long)

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