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COULD U FOLD
hi guys ,i was in a hand a couple of days ago and i was in the bb ,and it was an unraised pot ,so i had a free look with my 63 off suit...the flop came 24 of diamonds 5 clubs .....ive flopped the str8 and im thinking how do i get paid? i check ..and then it all kicks off , 2 player go allin and its back 2 me , my thoughts here is some1s got a diamond flush draw......and at the time i really didnt fancy my chances of my str8 holding up ,i dont know what it was ,but i just had a bad feeling about it ...... seeing that it was only a £5 freeze out tourney i made the call ,,player 1 had slow played queens , and player 2 was on a flush draw.....the turn was a diamond and i went out......anyway my question is what % fav was i with a str8 against a flush draw ?,i dont think i was miles ahead and possibly could have folded.....if i had paid £110 to play in the £2000 deepstack i think i would have...also if i had folded this hand in the primo last friday and they showed it on tv ,would i have bn slated or told i was playing to tight ? im not normally a tight player ,i just had a bad feelin i was gonna b outdrawn in this particular hand,,,could u make the laydown????????
Comments
Player two was putting the squeeze on, was up against QQ so the Queens have to make the call on that board really.
Only thing you could have done different was ship it all in (or at least make a bet that out prices a flop draw calling) on the flop, give the decision to Player two, who may have folded his flush draw at the odds your giving him (depends if he is in gambling mood - and if it would break him?) and yout would have defo had a caller in QQ as he would not put you on an over pair. though slight chance you have hit a set with that board.
Dave
the only place i would consider folding here was if it were a satlite to a tourney i really couldnt afford to buy directly into and was looking forward to playing.. once i got to that tourny tho.. even if this was the first hand im making the call..
even if player 1 = flush draw (9 outs = <40%)
and player 2 had trips = (8outs to hit full house + would have 9 on river but only 1 card left)
at the end of the day after the flop you hit the nuts after the flop.
i folded aces pre flop last week in a live tourney (cash/final table bubble) when there were 3 all ins b4 me, i know every1 will say i should have called and that i should av been there to win not ladder i really didnt fancy my chances of holding up 4 handed.. as it happen the short stack won the pot with 2 pair, but i would av won a big side pot.
somtimes gut instinct works better than odds lol
Good call... you can never fold the nuts, unless like daz says there are multiway all ins on the bubble of a satelite...
fold,,no ing way..lol
You should not fold here - it's a snap-call. Temporary nuts are enough to Call in Texas.
It's a cooler, really, but pretty standard stuff really.
In 4 Card Omaha it's different - you'd not be favourite against the field, as you have no extensions. The other players can both improve, you cannot. It's a much tougher decision in Omaha, but in Texas, snap-call, & it is what it is.
Remember, to win big - BIG - pots, you need "big-on-big", & that carries with it an element of risk. With greater risk, comes greater reward/loss.
One thing always to remember in these coups - you went in way behind, so it's not a bad-beat. We saw a "I flopped a Set with 3-3 & got Rivered by a set of Kings" thread yesterday, & it's the same as that - the 3's were 18 miles behind pre, so it's not a bad-beat.
Onwards & upwards!
I think that most people would say that the bad-beat is determined by the odds when (most of) the money went in.
In this case, as there was no pre-flop raise and he had the nuts when the money went in, I reckon I'd call that a baddish beat. Obviously it's not the worst of beats given the odds.
It's fair to say I shy away from even talking about bad-beats.
I used to do Live (Web) Updates for a few years, from all over the world, but Vegas sticks in my memory more than most, & that dreadful corridor. At every Tourney Break, the eerie silence of that echo-ey corridor would be broken as 2,000 players streamed into the corridor, & queued up to tell me what happened.
"I Raised with K-K, & guess what he called me with?"
"so the flop came....."
"How can he call there?".....
I must have heard the same stories a zillion times, which is fine, it goes with the territory. But I never understood the point of telling the story - but I did work out that the teller never really grasped what poker is about. Poker is luck-based - skill gives us an edge - & if they don't want luck, then Chess is ideal.
That does NOT apply to this Thread, which is actually an interesting coup, & I don't mind if it's clased as a bad-beat or not really.
The fascination to me - thank you, OP - was how, imo, this is a snap-call in Texas, & in many cases, an easy fold in Omaha. In 6 card O, it's an almost standard fold!
Poker, the beautiful (& varied) game.
You can't blame the guy for taking a free flop in the big blind and flopping the nuts! ;-)
I take your point about bad beats but some of us just can't help it.
Did I tell you the one where a guy shoved on me with KQ ....?
But w/e results based mentality ftw
Even if you can polarise your opponents ranges to the very, very top of 67dd and 555/444/222 (doesn't matter which set in this hand), then you are still a big favourite. I am semi capable of number crunching but I'm 5 tabling atm and haven't read the replies so ill leave that to Merenovice, as I expect he has posted something along those lines.
And actually if you are gonna be folding the nuts in ANY tournie (well bar the WSOP ME) then you shouldn't be playing poker. You wanna cash/final table w/e and in a £110 tounrie, where your skill advantage is gonna be less than a £5 one, you need to take every single equity advantage you can.
In fact I would argue that if you were gonna fold the flopped nuts that its a better idea to do so in a £5 tournie than a £100 one as you are more likely gonna be more +ev in those games so you can wait for 'better' spots.
But w/e results based mentality ftw
We all define Bad-Beats differently. Personally, I don't care when the money goes in, it's like everything in life - the tale really starts at the very beginning. Which was 6-3 v Q-Q v two random diamonds. We were a huge dog at that stage, then we got extraordinarily lucky. (You will know the odds of that straight flopping is what, hundreds to 1?).
It's a cooler in my book, but even if we forget the QQ, how much of a fav was the 6-3 against the Flush Draw on a 2-diamond flop? 2/1? That's hardly bad-beat territory, because thats when the money went in!
Love these debates, I really do.
PS - KQ is still the nutz.
Just to re-iterate - No, I could not, would not, & should not, Fold.
But we were not that big a fave v the FD.
HE HAS TO CALL.
I have never suggested, alluded, or implied otherwise.
But he's not nailed-on to win, & Flush draws - 4 to the flop - hit 1 time in 3. Being flushed is rarely a bad-beat. And the OP never suggested it was, btw.
But 2/1 is a big fav. Everyone in the wolrd would bite your hand off to have the chance to get it AIPF with KK vs AK and that isn't that far behind a flopped st8 vs a flopped flush draw scenario.
I can never fold the nuts.. flush draw or no flush draw.
I used to play a lot of Live Super Sats, & it was not uncommon, if the stack sizes & blinds were "just so", to Pass AA pre-flop.
"It depends" is the answer, I guess. It's deffo not 100% "no, never".
short stack and with 2 AIs in front of me....FOLD
average stacks and 2 AIs in front of me....FOLD
average stack and 1 AI+ no more action behind....CALL
hi guys ,thanx for the replys....normally when i flop the nuts ,my hat ,coat ,shirt ,shoes and pants r allin the middle b4 it even gets back 2 me, instant snap call ..........BUT this particular hand ,i really didnt think my hand would hold up <GUT FEELING> dont get me wrong <im not mystic meg> i just had a bad feeling that i was gonna get outdrawn .................my gut feelin was 2 fold ,and my instincts were right,,,,,,,,,,,,lets say i did fold .and it was shown on sky poker chanel ,what players ,anylists ,presenters opinions would b .......has any1 else laid down a massive hand just on gut feeling ?
1) We (the Analysts & Presenters, even Rich Orford) can see everyone's hole cards - that makes it different.
2) We never mock players "on screen", it's just not something we do.
There is always a reason why anyone does anything. It's the Analysts role to work that out, & discuss it, but nerver, never ever, berate the play.
Lovely Post, which resulted in a great Thread, by the way.
Poker Forums & Communities only work if folks contribute stuff, & this was a great thread.
FOLD
FOLD
OK YOU HAVE THE ST8,BUT YOUR BRAIN SAYS M8Y WILL HIT FLUSH SO FOLD INSTANTLY,,MY BRAIN TELLS ME IM GOOD AT POKER SO GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION NEVER FOLD M8 WHAT DO OUR BRAINS KNOW???????????