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long winded but true

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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    Results are like a CV. If you wanted medical advice and lived between 2 people who attended medical school. 1 went, and dropped out after 1 year after failing every module. The other is just about to graduate after 6 years of successful studying.  They offered conflicting advice on what your medical problem was. Which one would you listen to? ------------------------------------------ So when these losing players continue to come on here and claim the site is rigged, and there are robots, and action hands etc, do you stop and take note of what they're saying? Stop playing online, and tell all your friends to do likewise? Or do you ignore their wa cky theories which are clearly born out of  a) a lack of understanding of the game and b) losing money ? When a winning player, or more  significantly a group of winning players, comes on here and posts that they think something is amiss, I will be the first person to snap withdraw my money and not play until I'm convinced by someone @ sky that the site is legit.  ------------------------------------ Think it's called authority bias. You listen to people in the know.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Your analogy doesnt hold. Winning poker players have shown they know something about winning poker, not analysing how fair the game is

    What leads you to beleive winning players are the best to decide whether the site is fair? I am a winning player (not a big winner) but I would not be a good person to pick to test the rng. Similarly people who know very little about poker might be way better qualified to decide whether online poker is fair

    As for the do I stop playing because of posts like this, no I dont because its area 51 and half the people posting are tongue in cheek anyway. You dont stop when winning players post they think theres a problem

    If the arguements are so whacky you can surely just out argue them. Posting that you lose therefore your opinions suck , is bad form imo (and also doesnt always hold true) especially as you have not got access to all their results
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : Your analogy doesnt hold. Winning poker players have shown they know something about winning poker, not analysing how fair the game is What leads you to beleive winning players are the best to decide whether the site is fair? I am a winning player (not a big winner) but I would not be a good person to pick to test the rng. Similarly people who know very little about poker might be way better qualified to decide whether online poker is fair As for the do I stop playing because of posts like this, no I dont because its area 51 and half the people posting are tongue in cheek anyway. You dont stop when winning players post they think theres a problem If the arguements are so whacky you can surely just out argue them. Posting that you lose therefore your opinions suck , is bad form imo (and also doesnt always hold true) especially as you have not got access to all their results
    Posted by grantorino
    experience, no. of hands played, understanding of variance/downswings etc.

    The most important thing when concluding if the site is rigged or not, is to understand what a bad beat is.

    Something that the O.P clearly does not.

    I spoke to someone last week who claimed to have lost 17 out of his last 18 coinflips. After enquiring abit more, I found out that he was classing pots where there was action/betting on flop, turn, and river, as a coinflip, so long as it was a pair against 2 overs. Unreal.

    If you're gonna slate a site for the number of bad beats, at least understand what 1 is.

    And I have out-argued many loonies who insist it's rigged, it takes a few posts, some hand histories etc to find out they r bonkers, now you just skope them and find out within 15 seconds.

    I'm careful when interpreting stats/graphs etc, some graphs r much worse than others and it's blatantly obvious with some that they are long term losing players. Obv sometimes I may be wrong, but I'll find out within 1/2 posts if I am or not. 
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited July 2011
    losing players could have all the experience undeerstanding etc you talk about, but I agree its more likely for winning player to have it. I also doubt understanding what a bad beat is would be the most important thing in a task as complex as deciding is a poker site fair. Again, I think there is a big difference in playing winning poker and being able to decide if a site is fair.

    I dont agree with the OP, but its area 51 so I think I've already spent too much time on this. I do think though that posting that someone is a losing player is bad form in almost all circumstances
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  • bigal36903bigal36903
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    Results are like a CV. If you wanted medical advice and lived between 2 people who attended medical school. 1 went, and dropped out after 1 year after failing every module. The other is just about to graduate after 6 years of successful studying.  They offered conflicting advice on what your medical problem was. Which one would you listen to? ------------------------------------------ So when these losing players continue to come on here and claim the site is rigged, and there are robots, and action hands etc, do you stop and take note of what they're saying? Stop playing online, and tell all your friends to do likewise? Or do you ignore their wa cky theories which are clearly born out of  a) a lack of understanding of the game and b) losing money ? When a winning player, or more  significantly a group of winning players, comes on here and posts that they think something is amiss, I will be the first person to snap withdraw my money and not play until I'm convinced by someone @ sky that the site is legit.  ------------------------------------ Think it's called authority bias. You listen to people in the know.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH


    sorry DOHHHHHH... when did u get a braclet ??  which tourny
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  • igimcigimc
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : sorry DOHHHHHH... when did u get a braclet ??  which tourny
    Posted by bigal36903
    dohhhh also thinks that phil hellmuth (who is in the 
    running for poker player of the year) is a total donk,
    and doesn't rate him one bit.
    maybe his stats are rubbish on dohhhh's bible(sharkscope)
    as well.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2011
    haha he's a donk at his level. 

    I think Stuart Downing is useless but he'd still run rings around my local Sunday league team.

    Perspective ladz.


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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    haha he's a donk at his level.  I think Stuart Downing is useless but he'd still run rings around my local Sunday league team. Perspective ladz.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    How many bracelets do you need to cease being a donk?
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  • bigal36903bigal36903
    edited July 2011
    I THINK U NEED 20 ELSA.. then u start to be an ok playa
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    haha he's a donk at his level.  I think Stuart Downing is useless but he'd still run rings around my local Sunday league team. Perspective ladz.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Oh so much debate...good...i also note that when proper structured argument cant be formed in defence of some points.. a lot of the usual suspects (not all) resort to insult...believing the more they insult the more people will agree with them....but really... insults are quite a normal response to those who cant cope with the normal structured arguments of life in general...and i would have been severely disappointed if this was not the response i received.

    Let me recap a few facts about poker....i.e...(some would benefit from reading this)..Firstly..within the confines of any poker game...that dynamics of said game are constantly shifting....any player could get the exact same hand five times in an hour....and play this hand in five different ways...the way in which this changes can be due to...the number of people left in the tournament...the number of people left at the table...the size of their stack...the size your stack...and most importantly the way each person is playing...for instance a particularly aggressive player may push on every pre-flop..and every flop no matter what their cards...therefore you may feel it necessary to clip his wings (with the right hand of course) however you may get unlucky...another player may bluff..a lot...therefore you may feel you can beat this player with low percentage hand...(but again you may just run into their first good hand in ages) my point is that no players gameplay should be condemned on the strength of a few hands by someone who has not been privvy to the dynamics of that particular table..or that particular game...to do so is presumptuous...pretentious...and downright condescending..but keep it up

    but in this case i am particular delighted to be rubbished as it was the exact limited comeback that many of us predicted...so keep on trucking....and just for the record...why would any of these "usual suspects" be privvy what happens far far above their head....ps   I play small stakes...and at the minute...i ain't losing
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  • baggsbaggs
    edited July 2011

    In Response to Re: long winded but true:

    In Response to Re: long winded but true : experience, no. of hands played, understanding of variance/downswings etc. The most important thing when concluding if the site is rigged or not, is to understand what a bad beat is. Something that the O.P clearly does not. I spoke to someone last week who claimed to have lost 17 out of his last 18 coinflips. After enquiring abit more, I found out that he was classing pots where there was action/betting on flop, turn, and river, as a coinflip, so long as it was a pair against 2 overs. Unreal. If you're gonna slate a site for the number of bad beats, at least understand what 1 is. And I have out-argued many loonies who insist it's rigged, it takes a few posts, some hand histories etc to find out they r bonkers, now you just skope them and find out within 15 seconds. I'm careful when interpreting stats/graphs etc, some graphs r much worse than others and it's blatantly obvious with some that they are long term losing players. Obv sometimes I may be wrong, but I'll find out within 1/2 posts if I am or not. 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    Im not convinced its random. Why dont you scope me. You've out argued no one, your main basis of argument is somones stats. Does that mean I out argue you?

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : Im not convinced its random. Why dont you scope me. You've out argued no one, your main basis of argument is somones stats. Does that mean I out argue you?
    Posted by baggs
    The burden of proof is not on me, it's on people who think it's rigged or w/e.

    Surely when you see these people say "9 times out of 10 the best hand loses on the river" your brain just auto thinks "plonker" ?



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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to long winded but true : This was a very good read, well put together and frankly I can't argue with any of it. The question as to whether interference to the natural game is needed or desirable is a complex one. There are most certainly good reasons to influence the game but acieving the desired effects whilst staying within expected parameters makes it difficult. On line poker sites use the fact that the site is regulated and monitored as their defence against those who have doubts regarding the authenticity of the game. Most defenders of the sites use these guarantees as the basis of their belief that all is well, so to some extent it all works nicely. Examination of those guarantees of regulation and monitoring will find that they are far from comprehensive or complete. So that's where we stand at present. From the players point of view there are three camps - those who believe all is completely above board, those who aren't sure, and those who adamantly believe it is a manipulated game. Those who post a bad beat or a recollection of some hands do themselves no favours when they state that this is proof that the game is rigged. The outcome of any hand is possible and so can easily be cast aside as proof. Most of these posts are done in the ''heat of the moment'' and rarely come across as level-headed judgements and are therefore dismissed out of hand. Those who believe all is well have little problem dismissing these types of claims. If we take two players in a hand and one wins the hand and the other loses, then what we can say is that the winner either played it correctly or got lucky. The loser on the other hand is always open to the suggestion that they played it wrong. Because of this it is rather easy to defend the authenticity of any isolated hand and so he poster becomes the bad guy. One of the most common cries from the good guys is that the sample size is too small, and this is always true. To be certain that there is a fault in the generation and distribution of cards would require an enormous database, and even with billions of card combinations available it would still not be certain that it was outwith the possible, only that it was unlikely. The subject of random is not fully understood by even the best minds in the world so proving that something is amiss is unlikely. So what are the people who believe that the game is being manipulated basing their conclusions on? Well, as I said earlier, some take a small sample of out-draws, bad beats or whatever led to them losing as proof. Most of those people probably realise the next morning when they've cooled down that it isn't proof of anything other than an unusually bad run of cards. The obvious flaws in their reasoning are pounced upon with the standard answers, it all goes back and forth for a while and eventually disappears off the page. This does no good whatsoever in my opinion. People vent off in poker, they always have and always will. I say let them have their vent and move on. If anything the defenders are far more vociferous than those who doubt and I don't think that does them any favours in the eyes of most observers. From time to time we get well thought out and put together posts such as edge's. His experience tells him that something isn't quite right and that is HIS experience and therefore should be respected. I've played this game longer than most on this site and by default have a lot of experience. It can be argued that a bad driver of 30 years has just as much experience as a good driver of 30 years but that their views of good driving are different. Poker is similar except that poor players rarely last long. I know the game has changed dramatically over the years, and never more so than in the last 5, and I try to use my experience to adapt to the new conditions I encounter. Whether I'm adapting to a change in the game or a manipulation of the game is not always clear to me. I just learn and adapt and hope it results in a winning formula because that's the only control I have over the game.  Whenever I read a post in area51 I try to see it from the poster's point of view. Whether that is a guy having a rant after a bad night at the tables or a considered post from someone like edge should make no difference. You never know, at the end of the day, they might just be right!  
    Posted by elsadog
    I find this post absolutely epic....in particular the reference to "night before...morning after"....what can i say...guilty guilty guilty...on many occassions...and on many sites....however..this does not mean i'm wrong...but it doesn't mean i'm right either...but right or wrong...i'll continue to play and enjoy poker
    especiallly like everyone else...the games i know i'm playing well in...i just wish i wasn't playing in the games i'm not...lol..............great piece elsadog...but then i've come to expect no less
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  • baggsbaggs
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : The burden of proof is not on me, it's on people   who think it's rigged or w/e. Surely when you see these people say "9 times out of 10 the best hand loses on the river" your brain just auto thinks "plonker" ?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    The burden of proof is on you if you want to dismiss an argument. I think their memory is probably flawed but I certainly dont feel the need to sharkscope them and then berate them. I can honestly say if I was 100% certain it was all completely random I wouldnt waste my time reading Area51, it would be like going to a butchers when you're a vegatarian and telling them that all meat is bad, totally pointless
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  • igimcigimc
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    haha he's a donk at his level.  I think Stuart Downing is useless but he'd still run rings around my local Sunday league team. Perspective ladz.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Lol...hes already came 2nd in 3 wsop events this year.
    being called a donk by a guy thats scared to leave his own
    house is just laughable...lololololol
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : Lol...hes already came 2nd in 3 wsop events this year. being called a donk by a guy thats scared to leave his own house is just laughable...lololololol
    Posted by igimc[/QUOTE

    Any donk can run deep in a poker tournament, that's the beauty of the game. Variance is a great leveler. 

    I bet you've won a few in your time. 

    This is what happens when people run above expectation for a short period of time. 

    Of course if you're a total bozo u believe that it's the site sucking you in, letting you win so you get hooked and play more. Just lol.

    The debate about Hellmuth will run and run, and there's no right or wrong answer, but I'm obviously not a fan. 
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  • baggsbaggs
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true :
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : Lol...hes already came 2nd in 3 wsop events this year. being called a donk by a guy thats scared to leave his own house is just laughable...lololololol Posted by igimc[/QUOTE Any donk can run deep in a poker tournament, that's the beauty of the game. Variance is a great leveler.  I bet you've won a few in your time.  This is what happens when people run above expectation for a short period of time.  Of course if you're a total bozo u believe that it's the site sucking you in, letting you win so you get hooked and play more. Just lol. The debate about Hellmuth will run and run, and there's no right or wrong answer, but I'm obviously not a fan. 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    That explains some of your wins then
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : That explains some of your wins then
    Posted by baggs
    WHAT WINS!!!!  :(

    Been here nearly 2 years now and haven't finished above 5th in a main event :( 

    Keep saying that in the hope that it will change but it never does :(

    :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to long winded but true : First of all I will say  its a good read. Doh, what have his results got to do with this thread? I think posting he has bad results is both unfair and unnecessary, its bordering on petty imo. You think his post is nonsense, thats your right, but there is no need to go into how good or bad he is when it has no relevance to what he is saying here Now as regards the actual post. You won some money playing live poker, good for you, you think online is different? Why? Obv there are certain differences in the mechanics but its basically the same game, although live has some skills that are not really factors in online games  "woe betide those who only play online poker". lol. Poker live and online will have huge variance, I dont play much live but the same beats happen as far as I can see, probably more in fact because the standard in live games I play is often worse than the online games I play. As regards textbooks etc, they have a place (I've never seen one that doesnt say adjusting to your opponents is important btw). You dont have to play like a robot, but reading the better books will usually improve your game. Even though its a game where you have to adjust hugely to individual situations basic poker theory is still an important foundation to good players games. Yes the top players will make unorthodox plays, but if you think they dont spend a lot of time studying the game you are deluding yourself Is online poker rigged? I doubt it, but I think its very dangerous of players to just decide that it is definitely not.Multi million corporations are usually capable of not being very worried about ethics etc when there is money to be made, and the technology to rig it in the way you describe would certainly be there. My own opinion at the moment is that there would be too much of a risk v the reward for companies to rig online poker, and I see no good evidence it is rigged, but thats just my opinion its not a a fact
    Posted by grantorino
    great post....and i really shoudn't and don't mean to denigrate any textbook of any kind...it is the way in which these textbooks are brandished on occassion which rankles...
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  • igimcigimc
    edited July 2011
    so obviously any DONK can't win a tourny then.
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  • baggsbaggs
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : WHAT WINS!!!!  :( Been here nearly 2 years now and haven't finished above 5th in a main event :(  Keep saying that in the hope that it will change but it never does :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Id give up if I was you. Basically just a massive fish
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2011
    I've won a couple - so I'm uber-donk  :o)
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : sorry DOHHHHHH... when did u get a braclet ??  which tourny
    Posted by bigal36903
    its under all his textbooks...lol
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true :
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : Lol...hes already came 2nd in 3 wsop events this year. being called a donk by a guy thats scared to leave his own house is just laughable...lololololol Posted by igimc[/QUOTE Any donk can run deep in a poker tournament, that's the beauty of the game. Variance is a great leveler.  I bet you've won a few in your time.  This is what happens when people run above expectation for a short period of time.  Of course if you're a total bozo u believe that it's the site sucking you in, letting you win so you get hooked and play more. Just lol. The debate about Hellmuth will run and run, and there's no right or wrong answer, but I'm obviously not a fan. 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    oh dear...I completely agree with dohhh on the merits of phil Hellmouths game...lol
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    I've won a couple - so I'm uber-donk  :o)
    Posted by elsadog
    A couple , modesty prevails

    You is our gr8 leader

    Team51 4ever xxx
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : oh dear...I completely agree with dohhh on the merits of phil Hellmouths game...lol
    Posted by edge215
    of course..this is an informed decision...having watched the dynamics of games in which he has played...did you watch the games dohhh...or just look at a couple of hands
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : its under all his textbooks...lol
    Posted by edge215
    sorry...that was uncalled for...I have no desire to enter into a personal slagging match with your good self dohhh....I would like if you could..to recall a post by myself...arround 5 maybe six weeks ago..where i posted on area 51 about being creamed a lot with high pocket cards..i.e ace king..queen..jack...aces kings etc..rather than complaining....i posted a request on how best to deal with this problem...You offered advice...and i acted on said advice...and said advice did what it said on the tin....on that basis alone i cant ignore and wouldnt advise others to ignore your input....but please please...can we spell donk like this from now on d**k...

    live long and prosper....lol
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  • baggsbaggs
    edited July 2011
    Just lol at anyone calling hellmuth a donk when they are playing 5 and 10 quid sit n go
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  • edge215edge215
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    Just lol at anyone calling hellmuth a donk when they are playing 5 and 10 quid sit n go
    Posted by baggs
    that's d**k baggs...and i haven't raised my sights that high yet....lol
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited July 2011
    Here's a classic from tonight.

    The eventual winner of the hand has so far called every hand and is hitting with trash. It's already been commented in the chat that this guy has no fold button. I on the other hand have hit zero although I've had decent hole cards so far. I get KK and smell a rat so play it smallball to see what happens ............ this:
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    made4game Small blind  20.00 20.00 5748.75
    waller02 Big blind  40.00 60.00 4495.00
     Your hole cards
    • K
    • K
    		   
    nffc4eva Raise  160.00 220.00 4491.25
    pager Fold     
    elsadog Call  160.00 380.00 3805.00
    xxxxx Call  160.00 540.00 6535.00
    made4game Fold     
    waller02 Fold     
    Flop
      
    • A
    • A
    • A
    		   
    nffc4eva Check     
    elsadog Check     
    xxxxxx Bet  120.00 660.00 6415.00
    nffc4eva Call  120.00 780.00 4371.25
    elsadog Call  120.00 900.00 3685.00
    Turn
      
    • 3
    		   
    nffc4eva Check     
    elsadog Check     
    xxxxxx Bet  160.00 1060.00 6255.00
    nffc4eva Call  160.00 1220.00 4211.25
    elsadog Call  160.00 1380.00 3525.00
    River
      
    • 3
    		   
    nffc4eva Check     
    elsadog Check     
    xxxxxx Check     
    nffc4eva Show
    • 10
    • Q
    		   
    elsadog Show
    • K
    • K
    		   
    xxxxxx Show
    • 3
    • 3
    		   
    xxxxxx Win Four 3s 1380.00
    It's this kind of thing that makes people wonder. A preflop shove wouldn't put this guy off, he'd have been in like a rat up a drainpipe with his 33. He has a pet goldfish BTW.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: long winded but true:
    In Response to Re: long winded but true : The burden of proof is on you if you want to dismiss an argument. I think their memory is probably flawed but I certainly dont feel the need to sharkscope them and then berate them. I can honestly say if I was 100% certain it was all completely random I wouldnt waste my time reading Area51, it would be like going to a butchers when you're a vegatarian and telling them that all meat is bad, totally pointless
    Posted by baggs
    Well said bud.
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