how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney

biggunsme

blind		7000.00	7000.00	534835.00
Fitz833	Big blind		14000.00	21000.00	120692.00
	Your hole cards	10 K
biggunsme	Call		14000.00	35000.00	133473.00
texastom07	Fold
Fitz833	Check
Flop
		7 K 4
Fitz833	Check
biggunsme	Bet		14000.00	49000.00	119473.00
Fitz833	Call		14000.00	63000.00	106692.00
Turn
		7
Fitz833	Check
biggunsme	All-in		119473.00	182473.00	0.00
Fitz833	All-in		106692.00	289165.00	0.00
biggunsme	Unmatched bet		12781.00	276384.00	12781.00
Fitz833	Show	7 10
biggunsme	Show	10 K
River
		8
Fitz833	Win	Three 7s	276384.00		276384.00

PiAnOpLaYa

100% dont call, either raise or fold.

I dont even mind an all in.

Once you have called you need to bet the flop bigger

YOUNG_GUN

Raise or fold pre dont call, actually im shoving in this spot

Batkin88

Why would you move all in??? He has called your flop bet with something wether it be top pair (could be any kicker) or second pair (which your losing to) or a flush draw / str8 draw. So 2 out of three your behind in my eyes.
Raise pre if you want to play i dont like the shove because your getting called by any king with a better kicker and not much worse so you will be shoving knowing your behind if your called and at best racing against a low pp or a rag ace. (Although majority of players on this site will say a shove is good here, i just don't agree but thats my opinion)

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

Why would you move all in??? He has called your flop bet with something wether it be top pair (could be any kicker) or second pair (which your losing to) or a flush draw / str8 draw. So 2 out of three your behind in my eyes. Raise pre if you want to play i dont like the shove because your getting called by any king with a better kicker and not much worse so you will be shoving knowing your behind if your called and at best racing against a low pp or a rag ace. (Although majority of players on this site will say a shove is good here, i just don't agree but thats my opinion)
Posted by Batkin88

I do

K10 with 10 bigs on the button is standard shove really, they can only call with 15-20% of the hands so its profitable, if you run into Ace x its still not always a call depending on the villain. we are shoving primary to win the blinds and if your called your not going to be in too bad a shape with K10suited you wont find much better opportunities

DOHHHHHHH

easiest shove pre ever

jakally

Shove please.

Don't try and play poker 10BB's deep.

Batkin88

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : I do K10 with 10 bigs on the button is standard shove really, they can only call with 15-20% of the hands so its profitable, if you run into Ace x its still not always a call depending on the villain. we are shoving primary to win the blinds and if your called your not going to be in too bad a shape with K10suited you wont find much better opportunities
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr i think you will find there not suited lol i understand the shove i just don't like it i still believe you can play normally until 6 - 8 bb's deep in tournaments but that is how i play as opposed to the consensus of the forum

jakally

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

Why would you move all in??? He has called your flop bet with something wether it be top pair (could be any kicker) or second pair (which your losing to) or a flush draw / str8 draw. So 2 out of three your behind in my eyes. Raise pre if you want to play i dont like the shove because your getting called by any king with a better kicker and not much worse so you will be shoving knowing your behind if your called and at best racing against a low pp or a rag ace. (Although majority of players on this site will say a shove is good here, i just don't agree but thats my opinion)
Posted by Batkin88

Say you only get called by any Ace, any pair, or a better King.... you are still about 38% against this range.

Plus you get a  lot of folds, where  you will pick up the blinds. (it's quite possible you will get some better hands to fold, as people often don't like to call it off with small pairs, rag aces, even KJ).

If you raise and one of the blinds shoves, what are you going to do? Fold?

debdobs_67

I was railing this after goin out in 9th (mini main event b/h) and imo and it seems most others as well ya really shoulda shoved pre here , fitz was a pretty tight player and went on to win this tourny so i reckon a shove pre woulda got him to fold , if so then who knows ya may of lasted longer , wp anyway it was a great final table xxx

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : Say you only get called by any Ace, any pair, or a better King.... you are still about 38% against this range. Plus you get a  lot of folds, where  you will pick up the blinds. (it's quite possible you will get some better hands to fold, as people often don't like to call it off with small pairs, rag aces, even KJ). If you raise and one of the blinds shoves, what are you going to do? Fold?
Posted by jakally

Spot on but worded soo much bettter then mine

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr i think you will find there not suited lol i understand the shove i just don't like it i still believe you can play normally until 6 - 8 bb's deep in tournaments but that is how i play as opposed to the consensus of the forum
Posted by Batkin88

ok still dont make much difference suited or not mis-read ftw

DOHHHHHHH

Batkin I know it's your opinion n all that, but honestly how do you do so well in tournys on sky if you don't shove in spots like this?

I could ask that of like 10 names off the top of my head, they always go deep, and have good records, but some of the stuff I see them do makes me feel like crying.

Does the lack of antes really make THAT MUCH difference????

Maybe I need to change my strategy!!!!!

biggunsme

thanks all, debdobs u see on final table wen the fella in the bottom left shoved with his last 52k and tex called well i folded and i had pocket 2s would of hit quads if id of just called there id of 600k lol my bad think i shud of called even to c flop

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

thanks all, debdobs u see on final table wen the fella in the bottom left shoved with his last 52k and tex called well i folded and i had pocket 2s would of hit quads if id of just called there id of 600k lol my bad think i shud of called even to c flop
Posted by biggunsme

Post hand please and we shall discuss if thats ok

biggunsme

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : Post hand please and we shall discuss if thats ok
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

ok fella

Batkin88

I just don't see why you would need to shove, just think back to how many times u have been dumped out of a tournament when your trying to steal blinds.
I prefer to be the player picking off hese players who shove with any 2 in these posistions and double up, and i don't think that 10bb's isn't enough to play with i could comfortably sit for a few more orbits on 10bb's and pick the best hand and perform a few squeezes or posistion shoves where i know i won't get called and slowly build back up chip stack

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

I just don't see why you would need to shove, just think back to how many times u have been dumped out of a tournament when your trying to steal blinds. I prefer to be the player picking off hese players who shove with any 2 in these posistions and double up, and i don't think that 10bb's isn't enough to play with i could comfortably sit for a few more orbits on 10bb's and pick the best hand and perform a few squeezes or posistion shoves where i know i won't get called and slowly build back up chip stack
Posted by Batkin88

Are you going to find a better opportunity to 'position shove' than this?

The lower your stack, the more likely you are to get called, so this is a better spot to shove KTo w/10xbb than wait 2 orbits and shove with 8xbb??

Also this looks like it's 3 handed? what kinda hand are you waiting for??

Batkin88

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : Say you only get called by any Ace, any pair, or a better King.... you are still about 38% against this range. Plus you get a  lot of folds, where  you will pick up the blinds. (it's quite possible you will get some better hands to fold, as people often don't like to call it off with small pairs, rag aces, even KJ). If you raise and one of the blinds shoves, what are you going to do? Fold?
Posted by jakally

A raise would remove these hands aswell and yes in some circumstances if the raise is the correct amount you can fold to a shove. Like i have stated i do understand the reason for shoving and that is what is encouraged on sky poker which isn't incorrect but it isn't the only way of playing and a player. And in this circumstance a raise would of removed this hand aswell.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

I just don't see why you would need to shove, just think back to how many times u have been dumped out of a tournament when your trying to steal blinds. I prefer to be the player picking off hese players who shove with any 2 in these posistions and double up, and i don't think that 10bb's isn't enough to play with i could comfortably sit for a few more orbits on 10bb's and pick the best hand and perform a few squeezes or posistion shoves where i know i won't get called and slowly build back up chip stack
Posted by Batkin88

Level right? its unopened button, im jamming Q10/J10 in this spot. I agree as no antes 10 isn't always the magic number on sky but generally its still the same especially at the end of tournaments when people try to ladder you want to be pushing them around and what not. ok no need to be silly but K10 is well above the avearge hand and we are shorthanded have 10 bigs ideal opportunity to shove.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : A raise would remove these hands aswell and yes in some circumstances if the raise is the correct amount you can fold to a shove. Like i have stated i do understand the reason for shoving and that is what is encouraged on sky poker which isn't incorrect but it isn't the only way of playing and a player. And in this circumstance a raise would of removed this hand aswell.
Posted by Batkin88

Raise fold with 12bb< is very bad!!

Batkin88

I would be waiting for spots such as sitting in SB with two limps before or holding anything higher than k 10 tbh k 10 is not in my range in tournaments unless very deep and its a hand i always get into trouble with. Button shoves are look like steals so you are getting called lighter aswell e.g KQ KJ A T A9 or any ace suited.
I prefer to steal from one before the button as it looks so much stronger than the button or hitting the blinds heavy with any two. For the record i wouldn't shove with 88 or any pp below either. You can steal them blinds here and yes you will have another 15%- 20% to your stack or you can pick the right spot get it in win 50% on top of your stack and not have to see a flop.
(I am not waiting for hands i would be waiting for better value spots)

AMYBR

10BB's?  Fold or Jam

Talon

 Poker is a very simple game as long as you stick to a few basic rules.

 Rule 1) Preflop(with any hand) Raising= Good  Folding=Good  Limping= Bad.
 Rule 2) Always have a reason for everything that you do. With this hand your entire reasoning seems to be to hope that you hit the board well and anyone else in the hand to hit it as well but not quite as well as you and so will pay you off.

  At these blind levels and with your stack size blind stealing needs to be a big part of your game with it being about a 15% increase available.A 2x or 3x raise pot commits you which really leaves you with min raise, shove or fold.Normally a minraise is a pointless and stupid thing to do but at high blind levels it comes into its own as a powerful move.

 KT is a marginal hand to try to play down the streets whilst 10bb deep against an opponent who could have ATC.So in a nutshell raise or fold and never ever limp(unless trying to induce).

DOHHHHHHH

You would rather shove from the cut off than the button?

You know that means there are 3 people that could call you instead of 2? You're going to get called much more often. 

It's also hard to shove from the cut off in a 3 handed game.

jakally

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : A raise would remove these hands aswell and yes in some circumstances if the raise is the correct amount you can fold to a shove. Like i have stated i do understand the reason for shoving and that is what is encouraged on sky poker which isn't incorrect but it isn't the only way of playing and a player. And in this circumstance a raise would of removed this hand aswell.
Posted by Batkin88

I'm ok with raising, and calling a shove, but it's pretty spewy to raise / fold with 10bb stacks. It's just burning chips.

But like  you say, there isn't only one way of playing, and you are clearly having success with the way you play.

yb

batkin you can actually work out that shoving pre with KTo is +EV here. I'm not raise/folding with 10bbs, so shoving >> minraising imo.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : I'm ok with raising, and calling a shove, but it's pretty spewy to raise / fold with 10bb stacks. It's just burning chips. But like  you say, there isn't only one way of playing, and you are clearly having success with the way you play.
Posted by jakally

Is that in general? or with this hand in this spot?

KTo isn't strong enough to induce with right, unless the BB is insanely agro, and even then it's not strong enough???

Just as an aside, what size stack would you induce and raise/fold with in this spot on sky without antes? When does it go from raise-fold/raise-call, to just open shove iyo?

What's the worst hand you would induce with against a competent BB in the above scenario, or even when folded you you in the BB?

yb

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney:

In Response to Re: how should i of played this hand at this stage or tourney : Is that in general? or with this hand in this spot? KTo isn't strong enough to induce with right, unless the BB is insanely agro, and even then it's not strong enough??? Just as an aside, what size stack would you induce and raise/fold with in this spot on sky without antes? When does it go from raise-fold/raise-call, to just open shove iyo? What's the worst hand you would induce with against a competent BB in the above scenario, or even when folded you you in the BB?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

If the bb is competent I think you should be shoving with 100% of your opening range to balance your range.

Batkin88

In regards to dohhhhh i would rather hit with 3 behind as your hand looks stronger than a button shove which is standard so to speak, i fully understand all the reasoning behind why your shoving here but 10bb's to me is a very playable stack i would happily sit with 10bb's and would not start these plays until 6-8 bbs as i am comfortable playing with these stack sizes. I guess thats what it comes down to in the end i don't really play cash unless really bored so i have tournament play i stick to but all advice is taken on board and very helpful i just don't feel shoving with K T is ever getting called by less than k T so if you do it 5 times and get away with it 3 times your still out of cashing in one tournament and if i make this move and get called by KQ KJ A T or better i wouldn't be happy with my play

Dudeskin8

Snap shove pre, why has this thread got so long lolz ?