Analysis Please?

Glenelg

Mini B/H 460 runners, was 90/130. Was new to table so no reads. Was aware str was poss but was getting short and a double-up was more important to me. I know I'm a serial limper but would 1200 got him off pre?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
milkman90	Small blind		150.00	150.00	11830.00
ODIERIP	Big blind		300.00	450.00	7705.00
	Your hole cards	10 K
flydevil	Fold
Glenelg	Raise		600.00	1050.00	3410.00
-LEON-	Fold
AM_HERE	Call		600.00	1650.00	8375.00
milkman90	Fold
ODIERIP	Call		300.00	1950.00	7405.00
Flop
		K A 10
ODIERIP	Check
Glenelg	Bet		975.00	2925.00	2435.00
AM_HERE	Call		975.00	3900.00	7400.00
ODIERIP	Fold
Turn
		4
Glenelg	Check
AM_HERE	Bet		1200.00	5100.00	6200.00
Glenelg	All-in		2435.00	7535.00	0.00
AM_HERE	Call		1235.00	8770.00	4965.00
Glenelg	Show	10 K
AM_HERE	Show	Q J
River
		8
AM_HERE	Win	Straight to the Ace	8770.00		13735.00

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Dudeskin8

Open shove FTW.

As played shove turn, standard cooler.

waller02

yeah with your stack it's a fold or a shove

YOUNG_GUN

I'd fold pre here tbh

if your going to play shove, on flop your never getting away even if you know they have a straight

BigBluster

Fold pre. Shoving pre is wrong. You have little fold equity against the other stacks and will get called almost certainly in a BH. I'd shove with it on the button or if folded round to SB but it just isn't strong enough from your position, in my opinion.
You can still go a couple of rounds before you HAVE to shove. I find that people often move too soon in these situations.

Glenelg

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

Fold pre. Shoving pre is wrong. You have little fold equity against the other stacks and will get called almost certainly in a BH. I'd shove with it on the button or if folded round to SB but it just isn't strong enough from your position, in my opinion. You can still go a couple of rounds before you HAVE to shove. I find that people often move too soon in these situations.
Posted by BigBluster

Thanks guys.  You're prob right about moving too soon.

Codex

i dont think its too soon - 11BB is getting low with the blinds coming soon - you will be under 10 next time you get the button - for me this partly depends on your image, if you have been tight, this could get through, if you've been shoving a fair bit already, prob best to pass this one - i know new to table, but generally speaking

Its shove pre or fold tho imo

BB has a little over double your stack so it will hurt him to call and lose - SB is wider but has to worry about BB so may not want to call too light - if you wait too long, people will snap call due to the small percentage of their chips at risk and the value of the bounty

YOUNG_GUN

^^ that is very true if you havent played a hand for couple of rounds and you think your opponents have noticed then i would shove

also agree you can wait another round really for a better open spot preferably in late position, would be a snap shove if on button for me here marginal CO, all depends on your image and your opponents

Dudeskin8

Increase stack by 11.25%, not even a decision for me. Folding here is playing scared money imo.

The_Don90

shove pre imo. Fold is good aswell. But once flop lands defo get it in. VUL

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

Increase stack by 11.25%, not even a decision for me. [b]Folding here is playing scared money imo.[/b]
Posted by Dudeskin8

Complete nonsense.

I fold pre most of the time. However min-raise/folding can be fine but only if your image is pretty tight and/or you don't think anyone is going to reshove w/o a strong hand. Despite the low SPR after raising there's still enough room to outplay your opponent.

Shoving can also be fine if you have a table of good players and you have a pretty tight image.]

So yeh it depends!

pod1

dude gets slapped down!!!

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Complete nonsense. I fold pre most of the time. However min-raise/folding can be fine but only if your image is pretty tight and/or you don't think anyone is going to reshove w/o a strong hand. Despite the low SPR after raising there's still enough room to outplay your opponent. Shoving can also be fine if you have a table of good players and you have a pretty tight image.] So yeh it depends!
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Okaaay, so raise/folding with a 13 BB stack is good play, yh good luck with that lol.

debdobs_67

Shove flop obv IF ya play the hand but im actually foldin here with no info of table , larger stacks than me and too many to try and get it past.

Batkin88

I find it so odd that noone on skypoker feel 10bb is a playable stack!
Its a fold pre as your only getting called by better and if your lucky QJ calls, if your going to steal blinds then do it in better posistion (On the button or in blinds this deep)
You can play your stack so shallow in BB's in BH as players call so light just wait if you drop to 6-8 bb then start shoving

rancid

fold or shove
min raise with K10 is pointless, you may aswell have limped with your stack

the buttons just passed you so you may aswell just of shoved any two on the button.

Not loving the shove with K10 from the position, fine c/o or button
If you shoving with K10 from here then obviously you want them to fold so any two does that same thing )
If your called you will be in bad shape for sure unless somehow you get lucky and they got a underpr and at best your racing.

The question is Glen can you wait for a better hand to put your MTT on, 11 BB would say you could wait one orbit and see and if not just ship late opens and SB. With 9-10 BB you still have enough fold equity. If you do double up though with 9-10 BB then you will still have to double up again so......

as played shove flop, no hesitation just slam in the lamb

rancid

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

I find it so odd that noone on skypoker feel 10bb is a playable stack! Its a fold pre as your only getting called by better and if your lucky QJ calls, if your going to steal blinds then do it in better posistion (On the button or in blinds this deep) You can play your stack so shallow in BB's in BH as players call so light just wait if you drop to 6-8 bb then start shoving
Posted by Batkin88

10bb is a shoving stack
anything less you have less fold equity plus even if you double up with 6-7-8 BB's then your basically in the same spot - struggling to remain average chips - plus the lower you let yourself slip the worse your shoving range so people will call lighter -
Essentially if a double up puts you on average chips then you need to get it in whatever you number of blinds

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

I find it so odd that noone on skypoker feel 10bb is a playable stack! Its a fold pre as your only getting called by better and if your lucky QJ calls, if your going to steal blinds then do it in better posistion (On the button or in blinds this deep) You can play your stack so shallow in BB's in BH as players call so light just wait if you drop to 6-8 bb then start shoving
Posted by Batkin88

It's not just on sky poker........

How on earth can u play poker with 10xbb?

Make it 2.2xbb pre, make a standard 3xbb c bet then fold to a shove leaving 4.5xbb behind?

Flat a 2.2xbb open, float his 3xbb c bet on the flop with the intention of taking the pot away on the turn with your remaining 4.5xbb when you see weakness?

rancid

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : It's not just on sky poker........ How on earth can u play poker with 10xbb? Make it 2.2xbb pre, make a standard 3xbb c bet then fold to a shove leaving 4.5xbb behind? Flat a 2.2xbb open, float his 3xbb c bet on the flop with the intention of taking the pot away on the turn with your remaining 4.5xbb when you see weakness?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Reading this back Batkin might mean playable as in shovable but hey ho see what he says
I think someone did mention min raising with 11 BB, so this is aimed at them )

Also would be nice if peeps give there opnion on my first hand I posted, fat lot of use you lot are :P
I have not slept for three days because of this hand :P

Batkin88

You can steal from the blinds you can  shove the button or and SB you can stop and go, you can call a min raise from the BB and fold to an empty flop, You can play down to 6-8 bb

(Remember that thread a while back when i said KT always bad on here lol)

N1CK

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Okaaay, so raise/folding with a 13 BB stack is good play, yh good luck with that lol.
Posted by Dudeskin8

you can minraise/fold with the right table and image imo, with this hand in this position folding is prolly best option

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : you can minraise/fold with the right table and image imo, with this hand in this position folding is prolly best option
Posted by N1CK

Fair do that's your opinion but for me raise/folding is so terribad its scary.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Fair do that's your opinion but for me raise/folding is so terribad its scary.
Posted by Dudeskin8

for me it would be more scary open shoving k 10 holding my breath hoping the 4 players left to act all fold, the point i was trying to make is there are conditions were it cant be that bad

Dudeskin8

I prefer shoving to minraising especially when minraising isn't an option imo.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

I prefer shoving to minraising especially when minraising isn't an option imo.
Posted by Dudeskin8

so if you was on a super tight table and evryone was folding to minraises would you rather shove k 10 in ep with the same stck size?

Dudeskin8

Yes because if someone calls I'm not really in the mood to be cbetting 2-3 bb's after 2x it pre with a 13 BB stack (refer to Dohh's post).

Shoving imo folds out a large proportion of hands, 99+ maybe 88/77 calls, A10+ maybe A9/A8 and at a push KQ, all else folds unless we're playing bingo. On a super tight table the range is probably even smaller.

rancid

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : so if you was on a super tight table and evryone was folding to minraises would you rather shove k 10 in ep with the same stck size?
Posted by N1CK

Min raising to steal blinds is kinda pointless with K10, you may aswell do this with any two as the cards don't matter if your folding if shoved on. if you going to be playing a flop with K10 OOP then lucky be you as this hand will be easily domnated in this situation. Min raising is meant to be called when playing in position as this is way more profitbale, either you have the best hand or you c bet and you pick it up.

Doing any kind of raise with 11 bb's is not great, your either shoving flop or folding. So essentailly shove or fold pre - it's all the same. If your game plan with 11 BB's is to do any raising then you may aswell shove any two, think I would rarther shove from this postion with 67 than k10, as it's very possible when called your dominated.
If your min raising to rep AA/KK then if called, if your villian hits the flop he ain't folding as your not dep enough.

grantorino

you can raise/fold with 13BB imo, although I would rarely do it. Also you dont have to cbet flop if you do.You can shove,fold , maybe minraise fold, all depends on your image and other players ranges.

I dont particularly like minraise folding in this spot from info given, but the people saying its bad arent giving good reasons why its bad. In the spot nick talks about minraise folding is clearly better than openshoving imo

grantorino

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : Min raising to steal blinds is kinda pointless with K10, you may aswell do this with any two as the cards don't matter if your folding if shoved on. if you going to be playing a flop with K10 OOP then lucky be you as this hand will be easily domnated in this situation. Min raising is meant to be called when playing in position as this is way more profitbale, either you have the best hand or you c bet and you pick it up. Doing any kind of raise with 11 bb's is not great, your either shoving flop or folding. So essentailly shove or fold pre - it's all the same. If your game plan with 11 BB's is to do any raising then you may aswell shove any two, think I would rarther shove from this postion with 67 than k10, as it's very possible when called your dominated. If your min raising to rep AA/KK then if called, if your villian hits the flop he ain't folding as your not dep enough.
Posted by rancid

True your cards dont matter if you raise fold, but KT is obv a bluff on a very tight table

I would be surprised if 67 plays better against the vast majority of players calling ranges than KT

rancid

In Response to Re: Analysis Please?:

In Response to Re: Analysis Please? : True your cards dont matter if you raise fold, but KT is obv a bluff on a very tight table I would be surprised if 67 plays better against the vast majority of players calling ranges than KT
Posted by grantorino

Range of hands there calling with will more likely hold a King or a Ten but very unlikely be holding a 6 or 7.
I feel I would be easily dominated with K10
So lets presume someone makes a light call with KJ, I am in bad shape right with K10.
If they call with underpair, I am racing with K10 at best, 10's or J's I am in terrible shape.
At least with 67 I am live )

If called with either hand I am not liking it, would they call with worse than K9 - I don't think so
So we are looking at pr's below a 10 at best so only in this sitaution K10 plays well
67 is live but dead to 8's and over - well within calling range and also in bad shape against two overs

So I guess K10 plays better against there calling range
but 67 feels like a nice bad beat bluff shove
o you have aces - i run out a straight

F_Ivanovic

^^ Agreed about the whole "raise with KT, may aswell raise/fold any 2" - And if on the BTN/maybe CO I definititely wouldn't mind flatting instead of raising. One thing I notice is that a lot of players in the blinds will check with a lot of hands such as A9 and small pairs that will no doubt have shoved if you'd made a standard steal on the button. If you do hit the flop you're probably good most of the time. Also people don't like to fold TPWK or middle pairs when they hit a piece, so if you hit a better piece, you often get their stack.

 Problem in our position is if we limp and there's 2 players in CO/BTN that are loose they might call as well and we're now OOP to one and possibly seeing the flop 4 way. At least with min-raising here, the CO/BTN should fold most of the time. Also our raise in this position is going to get respected more than if we were on the CO or BTN.

I tend to balance my min-raising raise by min-raising hands I'm happy to call a shove (JJ+, AQ/AK) to and then these types of hands where if I would shove pre and get called I'm probably in bad shape. And then I balance my shoving hands with stuff like A9+, 22-tens, KQs with some suited connector stuff. 

I used to be of the opinion that 10bbs is shoving territory with a widish range but I came to realise that in a lot of tournaments I'd be doing well, and then I'd shove with hands like KT with 10bbs and get called by a better hand and go out. The Sunday Roller which I won about 3 weeks ago was a perfect example of me trying a completely new strategy. I hand no hands for ages and was very short stacked for a large part of the tourney (I had 5k chips when the blinds were up to 250/500) but I kept making sure I was about 10bbs by playing the odd hand and avoiding putting my tourney life on the risk. When I did hit a hand I doubled up and from there I was able to go on to win it. All from a strategy of limping/min-raising a balanced range as opposed to just shoving with 10bbs with any 2 decent cards.