Huge draw to a donk bet

TommyD

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		250.00	250.00	30012.50
BFC007	Big blind		500.00	750.00	20667.50
	Your hole cards	K A
SolidStan1	Fold
TommyD	Raise		1200.00	1950.00	19457.50
EBBERDON	Fold
x	Call		950.00	2900.00	29062.50
BFC007	Fold
Flop
		J Q 9
x	Bet		2900.00	5800.00	26162.50
TommyD	?

TommyD

No previous reads on the villain, never seen them before, he's been pretty solid since I joined this table around 30 hands ago  This is with about 70 left in the rebuy open tonight and we're around the middle of the field.  I think he's got a piece with the monotone board and is betting to protect.  Question is, what do you do?

jimb0d1

ALL IN. hit flush. celebrate

grantorino

doubt he ever folds, but I get it in

Dudeskin8

Shove, shove, then shove again.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

doubt he ever folds, but I get it in
Posted by grantorino

this

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

doubt he ever folds, but I get it in
Posted by grantorino

Watched a vid yesterday, albeit a cash vid....

That said it's a mistake to play draws aggressively, even big ones, if you have no fold equity.

So if you don't think he ever folds, wouldn't it be a mistake to try n get it in? Or is it different in tournys? Or do u justify it by saying you could already have the best hand here sometimes?

rancid

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : this
Posted by GREGHOGG

+1
I am all in quicker than i can blink

pod1

im sooo passive, im just flattin here!

rancid

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : Watched a vid yesterday, albeit a cash vid.... That said it's a mistake to play draws aggressively, even big ones, if you have no fold equity. So if you don't think he ever folds, wouldn't it be a mistake to try n get it in? Or is it different in tournys? Or do u justify it by saying you could already have the best hand here sometimes?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Think his stack dictates it's a shove or fold, he ain't folding so he got to shove.
If he calls and he hits turn there's no guarentee he is going to get paid anyway.
If your sitting deep in cash I guess the same applies, is it worth just calling with my massive draw as I will not get paid so even though playing big draws aggressivly is high risk to a certain degree it's kind of the only way your getting paid. Lets face it the only way your getting paid if you hit by calling is if he is holding a massive hand and he can't let go or somethiing which you can beat, big flush card.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : Watched a vid yesterday, albeit a cash vid.... That said it's a mistake to play draws aggressively, even big ones, if you have no fold equity. So if you don't think he ever folds, wouldn't it be a mistake to try n get it in? Or is it different in tournys? Or do u justify it by saying you could already have the best hand here sometimes?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Yeah its not a fistpump. We are prob getting it in with about 50% equity. But its a monster draw and we prob have a very small % of fe, and very rarely the best hand

Agree in general though we shouldnt be playing draws aggressively with no fe. But we are too shallow to call imo when all the cards we can hit might kill action. I think this is a shove due to a small bit of fe and dead money in the pot, I may be wrong though and I could be convinced its a fold, its definitely close imo

TommyD

Well I did shove, but is this not turning my hand face up?  Does a flat not represent bigger than I have with the option to get out if they shove the turn?  I'd like someone to put forward an argument for a fold but I really can't find a fold here, we're just too big against the preflop calling range.  I'll name his hand later on.

pod1

that was my thinking tommy, you give nothing away about the strength of your hand by flatting here, unless he has the nutz he would be worried you were just milking him on a board like that. if he jams on a blank turn you can get away pretty cheap, if you hit one of your multiple outs you can re evaluate.  

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : Watched a vid yesterday, albeit a cash vid.... That said it's a mistake to play draws aggressively, even big ones, if you have no fold equity. So if you don't think he ever folds, wouldn't it be a mistake to try n get it in? Or is it different in tournys? Or do u justify it by saying you could already have the best hand here sometimes?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Does that mean I shouldnt of got my money in on the turn with my flopped nut flush draw vs your aces, as I have no fold equity vs you even 100bbs deep

DOHHHHHHH

That's a rly interesting hand for the subject of playing big draws Plop, well worth posting in the clinic....

I'd post it myself but it's more interesting from your point of view, think my decisions in the hand were pretty obvious.

Post it up

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

That's a rly interesting hand for the subject of playing big draws Plop, well worth posting in the clinic.... I'd post it myself but it's more interesting from your point of view, think my decisions in the hand were pretty obvious. Post it up
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

To be fair it was a pretty standard hand, I turn pair aces with q kicker, and nut flush re draw.

I don't see much need for analysis.

I just need a bit of run good as I havnt had any since I went to Cardiff.

yb

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : To be fair it was a pretty standard hand, I turn pair aces with q kicker, and nut flush re draw. I don't see much need for analysis. I just need a bit of run good as I havnt had any since I went to Cardiff.
Posted by donkeyplop

if you're talking about the one you posted in bbv I don't think its that standard at all tbh, I definitely wouldn't be c/ring the turn anyway.

yb

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

Well I did shove, but is this not turning my hand face up?  Does a flat not represent bigger than I have with the option to get out if they shove the turn?  I'd like someone to put forward an argument for a fold but I really can't find a fold here, we're just too big against the preflop calling range.  I'll name his hand later on.
Posted by TommyD

surely you'd be raising with stuff like JJ/QQ as well though? and fwiw i'd be raising with the nuts here also because there's loads of turn cards that could kill our action, and it doesn't look like he's folding much.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet : if you're talking about the one you posted in bbv I don't think its that standard at all tbh, I definitely wouldn't be c/ring the turn anyway.
Posted by yb

Would you ever lead the turn?

yb

yep i'd be continuing with most of my bluffs on that card so i'd lead a lot of the time for value and to balance my range. i think c/c is ok too if he thinks you like to float flops a lot because the ace is going to be a great bluffing card for you as well.

but when he c/raises he is sort of turning tpgk into a bluff because he's not really ever gonna get called by worse, and its not as if he needs to protect his hand either, and also it doesn't allow you to continue your bluffs on the river.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

yep i'd be continuing with most of my bluffs on that card so i'd lead a lot of the time for value and to balance my range. i think c/c is ok too if he thinks you like to float flops a lot because the ace is going to be a great bluffing card for you as well. but when he c/raises he is sort of turning tpgk into a bluff because he's not really ever gonna get called by worse, and its not as if he needs to protect his hand either, and also it doesn't allow you to continue your bluffs on the river.
Posted by yb

So you lead turn, and get it in I assume? even thought we are still 100+ bb's deep going to the turn?

I didn't think you needed to balance your range against fish?

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Huge draw to a donk bet:

Well I did shove, but is this not turning my hand face up?  Does a flat not represent bigger than I have with the option to get out if they shove the turn?  I'd like someone to put forward an argument for a fold but I really can't find a fold here, we're just too big against the preflop calling range.  I'll name his hand later on.
Posted by TommyD

Tommy i think IMO that flatting would be wrong against most opponents. I believe against very good players you could flat to do your turn move on any turn. Problem beng against the average player your flat lets yor hand out of the bag IMO /> 

We have good equity in the hand unless he has a certain combination of hands. Are we really that worried of the straight flush possiblites that folding is possible? I certainly wouldnt be. 

FWIW im with the first few guys and my stack is in the middle and im flipping on the most part.  

pod1

i do understand why going all in is a good option here, but i dont understand why its the best option. yes you got outs and a lot of them, but you got 20k behind ,40 bb. why risk a tourny on a draw? don , i still cant see how  flatting is letting his hand out the bag? your last line sums up the problem for me pushing! flipping with 40 bb just doesnt make sense in a tourny!

delaney09

i don't think you can really fold here i been thinking for a little while a reason to fold but cant find one just because 1) if he flops the straight you have the redraw to a bigger straight if he flops a flush you have the redraw to the Ahigh flush he himself could have Kx with the K of diamonds, TT with the T of diamonds giving him the OESD and OESFD, but either way i think im just getting it in for the simple fact you still have outs if he has flopped something, flatting could = massive strength ie flopping the flush or the obvious chasing the draw i dont really think it puts your hand face up, i don't really mind a flat if you have plan for the turn/river  

i'll stop now before it turns into a book.... but i think the shove is fine mate seeing as you still have 4 T's 8 diamonds potentially as well as the 3 A's 3 Ks if they are live so you are on a 18 outer

jimb0d1

Simply put - I play to win, so I want to take the value on offer here. Im going to be in worse spots than this later, so ill take my chances when i get them.

pod1

yes jim , you will be in worse spots thats for sure but can you say your not going to be in better spots. like i say your flippin at 40 bb! ps delaney could some of them outs improve villians hand? im not to clever at reverse implied odds but im sure on that board they might 

TommyD

Thanks for the input guys.  I think raising/getting it in is the best move.  My argument for flatting would be to put a bit of fear into the villain that we have the made flush already in order to try and get the river for free.  I'm not totally convinced by this argument, guess that's why I shoved.  In answer to YB, I do raise with the nuts and the other hands you mention, but I'm doing this as I am the kind of player to bet the draw as well as disguising the nuts when I have it.

Ok, the results.  I shove, they snap it off with top set (yes they had pocket Queens, didn't see that coming either).

Turn pairs the board, gg.

Thanks again for the input guys.

grantorino

Tommy, I dont think flatting looks stronger for the sim[ple reason most people raise their strong hands on this board

You mention you cant fold because of his preflop range, but its the preflop range that donks pot on a very scary board that we are dealing with, I would imagine that narrows his range a lot

If you want a reason to fold, I would go with we have a decent stack, you prob have a decent edge over field and this is going to be a pretty small +EV spot due to lack of fe and dead money in pot. I dont hate a fold at all, because when guys donk strong at this board they nearly always have some of your outs and/or redraws

AMYBR

Only read OP.

Dont mind a jam, but I dont mind a flat, getting to turn pretty cheap, potentially getting to river for free when missing.

I'm happy enough getting it in on flop, but with stacks and 30+ bigs behind I dont think we HAVE to get it in.

Like either line.  Only thing that gives me pause is if we do jam we have no room to navigate on streets, the jam pretty much defines your hand also, plus you hold the nut blocker

LLCooLD

I'm fist pumping all in here. 

Yes, there is marginal FE, when you shove and are called, you are still in great shape to win.

rancid

I've changed my mind I think you can flat here )
My first thinking was to shove, but also with the lead being pot you know he ain't folding, so like Pod says your flipping 40 bb's. You call and maybe see a free river or you have to fold to another pot bet lead - and you still have 34 bb's, playable enough to find a better percentage spot - you hit and your one happy man

So I suppose if you think he is not folding then maybe you should not play these very aggro.
<20bb's it's a snap shove -- greater then you can flat - i know 200bb's cash game I'm flatting so......