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BH

percival09percival09
edited August 2011 in The Poker Clinic
bet flop

I prob fold turn without a read on betsizing

fold river
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancepercival09Small blind 75.0075.004283.00villainBig blind 150.00225.007502.76 Your hole cardsA2   00kavFold    Heavy22Fold    mutcheyFold    percival09Raise 466.00691.003817.00villainCall 391.001082.007111.76Flop  5A8   percival09Check    villainBet 150.001232.006961.76percival09Call 150.001382.003667.00Turn  K   percival09Check    villainBet 1382.002764.005579.76percival09Call 1382.004146.002285.00River  Q   percival09Check    villainAll-in 5579.769725.760.00percival09All-in 2285.0012010.760.00villainUnmatched bet 3294.768716.003294.76percival09ShowA2   villainShow10J   villainWinStraight to the Ace8716.00 12010.76

    This was my first tournament on Sky for like 24 years! Anyway, villain is v.fishy, as in the fishiest guy EVER/donk ... knew he'd be calling with v.wide range here, couple hands before he donked off about 5K to another player on complete bluff firing all three barrels .. i definitely have taggy image, only played couple hands previous to this! I know i shouldn't show the result, but there isn't one street that i want particularly looking at, basically the whole hand, is this an ok way to play the hand? any other lines i could have taken? 

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  • CodexCodex
    edited August 2011
    by time i get to river i fold


    bet flop, as played re-raise

    shove or fold turn


    to sumarize, get out of habit of check calling - make other guy make a decision other than whether to bet at you or not
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited August 2011
    I definitely don't like check calling all the way down. If you think you're beat then fold, if you think you're ahead then get chips in the pot/don't let him outdraw you (which he did).

    His bet on the flop is SO weak... 150 into 1082! Definitely got to be re-raising there. I know people don't like the term but if you do a proper reraise to say 800, then you 'find out where you are'.

    If he is as junk as you say and you're never getting rid of him, then you're just stuck with it, but 90% of people have got to fold to a big bet on the flop and the turn.
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    Hmm i have to say i am surprised with the feedback so far, maybe i played it wrong, (most likely) .. at the time i thought i played it well vs this opponent! my plan for the hand once i hit top pair was to let him bluff, because i know he does, he's clueless with his bet sizing which he proved in literally the hand before this one where he bluffed half his stack, i was always going to c/c every street whatever came, because i know he's betting anything .. yes it's risky and i can't complain for losing the hand, but i didn't think i played it too bad tbh! 
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    I definitely don't like check calling all the way down. If you think you're beat then fold, if you think you're ahead then get chips in the pot/don't let him outdraw you (which he did). His bet on the flop is SO weak... 150 into 1082! Definitely got to be re-raising there. I know people don't like the term but if you do a proper reraise to say 800, then you 'find out where you are'. If he is as junk as you say and you're never getting rid of him, then you're just stuck with it, but 90% of people have got to fold to a big bet on the flop and the turn.
    Posted by Lambert180
    What do you find out if you c/r and (a) he folds (b) he calls (c) he raises?
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    by time i get to river i fold bet flop, as played re-raise shove or fold turn to sumarize, get out of habit of check calling - make other guy make a decision other than whether to bet at you or not
    Posted by Codex
    Why would I fold the river as played? My plan was to c/c every street so folding the river would be bad imo
    Why would I shove the turn? what am i going to get called by that i'm beating?

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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    I definitely don't like check calling all the way down. If you think you're beat then fold, if you think you're ahead then get chips in the pot/don't let him outdraw you (which he did). His bet on the flop is SO weak... 150 into 1082! Definitely got to be re-raising there. I know people don't like the term but if you do a proper reraise to say 800, then you 'find out where you are'. If he is as junk as you say and you're never getting rid of him, then you're just stuck with it, but 90% of people have got to fold to a big bet on the flop and the turn.
    Posted by Lambert180
    I didn't think I was beat, that's why I called
    I was no where near strong enough to raise at almost any point, what am i going to called by that i'm ahead of?
    Why?

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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    Hmm i have to say i am surprised with the feedback so far, maybe i played it wrong, (most likely) .. at the time i thought i played it well vs this opponent! my plan for the hand once i hit top pair was to let him bluff, because i know he does, he's clueless with his bet sizing which he proved in literally the hand before this one where he bluffed half his stack, i was always going to c/c every street whatever came, because i know he's betting anything .. yes it's risky and i can't complain for losing the hand, but i didn't think i played it too bad tbh! 
    Posted by percival09
    How do you know he always bets 3streets with worse here? Your plan sound ok in theory, but I wouldnt be doing it on every board (this ones pretty bad tbh) and Im not sure how you have such a good read in tourney situation. If you have fair enough, but its a very high variance way to play, especially when your own hand is pretty weak
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : How do you know he always bets 3streets with worse here? Your plan sound ok in theory, but I wouldnt be doing it on every board (this ones pretty bad tbh) and Im not sure how you have such a good read in tourney situation. If you have fair enough, but its a very high variance way to play, especially when your own hand is pretty weak
    Posted by grantorino
    Because he just did lol!
    Admittedly this is a bad board to play it as i did, but i was just so convinced i was ahead and like i've said i've got a solid enough read on him where i know he will bluff every street if checked to him
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : Because he just did lol! Admittedly this is a bad board to play it as i did, but i was just so convinced i was ahead and like i've said i've got a solid enough read on him where i know he will bluff every street if checked to him
    Posted by percival09
    You could easily see a good player bluff 3 streets, doesnt mean they always do it. Even if you know he bluffs 100% if checked to, you need to know how he plays monsters and midstrength hands. I understand your reasoning, but Im unsure as to how you can be so sure hes bluffing after so little table time, and also your hand isnt very strong. Personally I prefer play the hand more straightforward (not saying its better, just looking to keep it simple), if you are very sure he is bluffing a hell of a lot here I suppose its ok
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : You could easily see a good player bluff 3 streets, doesnt mean they always do it. Even if you know he bluffs 100% if checked to, you need to know how he plays monsters and midstrength hands. I understand your reasoning, but Im unsure as to how you can be so sure hes bluffing after so little table time, and also your hand isnt very strong. Personally I prefer play the hand more straightforward (not saying its better, just looking to keep it simple), if you are very sure he is bluffing a hell of a lot here I suppose its ok
    Posted by grantorino
    Honestly, the guy is terrible!
    Ok fair enough, that was probz a mistake
    Meh you're probably right, but i still stand by the line i took, but i understand it was v.risky and betting would have been the safe method
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
     whether he's good or bad , just making point you'd need to see a good few hands to be sure he bluffs if checked to
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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    Definately c-bet the flop, huge mistake, as played, his bet is very very weak there, it looks fishy, i would be raisin = hand over.

    The pot size call on the turn is poor aswell, Im folding my Ace rag there, too often you're beat. 

    The call on the river....wow. Flush got there, straight got there, many 2P holdings got there, you are not good, and literally you're only beating a bluff. Yes he got lucky, but a lot of hands/holdings hit. Hell any Ace was beating you! 
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    Definately c-bet the flop, huge mistake, as played, his bet is very very weak there, it looks fishy, i would be raisin = hand over. The pot size call on the turn is poor aswell, Im folding my Ace rag there, too often you're beat.  The call on the river....wow. Flush got there, straight got there, many 2P holdings got there, you are not good, and literally you're only beating a bluff. Yes he got lucky, but a lot of hands/holdings hit. Hell any Ace was beating you! 
    Posted by LLCooLD
    I have basically replied to this comment in my above posts 
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    Definately c-bet the flop, huge mistake, as played, his bet is very very weak there, it looks fishy, i would be raisin = hand over. The pot size call on the turn is poor aswell, Im folding my Ace rag there, too often you're beat.  The call on the river....wow. Flush got there, straight got there, many 2P holdings got there, you are not good, and literally you're only beating a bluff. Yes he got lucky, but a lot of hands/holdings hit. Hell any Ace was beating you! 
    Posted by LLCooLD
    Also, i think a lot of what you said is wrong with the reads i had, the only thing i strongly believe was a mistake is not knowing how he plays his big hands, because i was fairly sure he's bluffing once checked to him! I remember watching master cash a few weeks back, and a v.good high stakes cash player made this play, calling villain down with tp regardless of what came because he knew villain would fire all barrels, the only difference was he had much stronger reads than me .. but i seriously don't think i was too much wrong here, not as much as your post points out anyway! but that could just be me being completely naive ...
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited August 2011
    Cbet flop.

    Snap fold pot bet on turn for me.

    Once call turn have to call river but I don't like playing this way as you're basically hoping he's bluffing when imo most played play this way with a hand that beats A2.

    Oh I get it nice brag post lol.
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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : Also, i think a lot of what you said is wrong with the reads i had, the only thing i strongly believe was a mistake is not knowing how he plays his big hands, because i was fairly sure he's bluffing once checked to him! I remember watching master cash a few weeks back, and a v.good high stakes cash player made this play, calling villain down with tp regardless of what came because he knew villain would fire all barrels, the only difference was he had much stronger reads than me .. but i seriously don't think i was too much wrong here, not as much as your post points out anyway! but that could just be me being completely naive ...
    Posted by percival09
    without being ar$ed to sit and work out the actual EV on this river call, but I suspect you have to right SO much of the time to make that a good call.

    Fair enough, you might be confident in saying you had a read etc, if thats the case, then this a pointless thread is it not? If you are confident you are right, he fires 3 barrells with air, then why are you asking for advice?


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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    In Response to BH:
    i definitely have taggy image, only played couple hands previous to this!
    So despite this image, he still shoves the river with Air after you raise PF, c/c the flop, c/c the turn.....Nah sorry. 

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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to BH : So despite this image, he still shoves the river with Air after you raise PF, c/c the flop, c/c the turn.....Nah sorry. 
    Posted by LLCooLD
    Ugh don't even want to reply to this. He is a donk, he's been involved in almost every hand, making ridiculous bet sizings, bluffing half his stack off readless .. so yes is the answer to your question .. why would i lie? obviously he would, i can 100% guarentee he was putting me all in on the river if a blank came
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : without being ar$ed to sit and work out the actual EV on this river call, but I suspect you have to right SO much of the time to make that a good call. Fair enough, you might be confident in saying you had a read etc, if thats the case, then this a pointless thread is it not? If you are confident you are right, he fires 3 barrells with air, then why are you asking for advice?
    Posted by LLCooLD
    So I can't post a hand for debate? I won't do it next time, sorry mod
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  • acebarry10acebarry10
    edited August 2011
    Hi Percival

    I would suggest you either edit your OP, or remove the reference to the player being a donk, it does break the forum rules I am afraid :)
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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : Ugh don't even want to reply to this. He is a donk, he's been involved in almost every hand, making ridiculous bet sizings, bluffing half his stack off readless .. so yes is the answer to your question .. why would i lie? obviously he would, i can 100% guarentee he was putting me all in on the river if a blank came
    Posted by percival09
    oh well, then, this thread was entirely pointless, you already knew your answer, and didnt require any advice. 


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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    Hi Percival I would suggest you either edit your OP, or remove the reference to the player being a donk, it does break the forum rules I am afraid :)
    Posted by acebarry10
    lol sorry, never realised i left his name in! 
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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : So I can't post a hand for debate? I won't do it next time, sorry mod
    Posted by percival09
    Well, why ask for hand advice, if you're going to shoot everyone down, tell people you are right because he is a "donk" fires every street etc etc etc. Seems to be you didnt need our advice. 

    Anyways, enough said from me. 
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  • Ploppy33Ploppy33
    edited August 2011
    Am I the only one to think fold pre here?

    I absolutely hate A2 - you never know where you are - even on dream flop of 345 can still be losing to suited connector 67 which lots of peeps play.

    Also get into trouble against weak players with their Ace rags who cannot fold regardless of action post flop.

    As played though I probably would raise the flop bet, to 600-700, Folding to any resistance - not great I know but I wouldnt play A2.
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  • LLCooLDLLCooLD
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    Am I the only one to think fold pre here? I absolutely hate A2 - you never know where you are - even on dream flop of 345 can still be losing to suited connector 67 which lots of peeps play. Also get into trouble against weak players with their Ace rags who cannot fold regardless of action post flop. As played though I probably would raise the flop bet, to 600-700, Folding to any resistance - not great I know but I wouldnt play A2.
    Posted by Ploppy33
    6 handed in the SB, A2 needs to be played IMO. I agree with your generalization though. A-rag I detest bar in position. A good friend of mine once said:

    "Ace rag, wins you small pots, loses you big ones".

    Not a truer word spoken.
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  • percival09percival09
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : Well, why ask for hand advice, if you're going to shoot everyone down, tell people you are right because he is a "donk" fires every street etc etc etc. Seems to be you didnt need our advice.  Anyways, enough said from me. 
    Posted by LLCooLD
    You may need to find the definition of the word debate. I understand what your saying, some of my posts do come across quite strong .. but I feel if someone is giving me incorrect advice they need to be corrected aswell .. but then I read some posts saying how I played so terribly wrong, when I know i didn't, but i'm fully aware there might have been a more profitable line, betting out for example .. 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : I didn't think I was beat, that's why I called I was no where near strong enough to raise at almost any point, what am i going to called by that i'm ahead of? Why?
    Posted by percival09
    The flop has 2 straight draws and a flush draw, the turn adds an extra flush draw and another straight draw, so theres now 2 flush draws and 3 straight draws. Then the river completes one of the straight draws AND one of the flush drawes.

    You're right, you won't get called by anything which you're ahead of. You're hand is probably best but theres so many ways you can be beaten, wouldn't you rather take down a medium size pot than potentially lose a big one. If you put a decent re-raise in on the flop, he has to fold and you turn your 4200 stack into about 5500+
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : What do you find out if you c/r and (a) he folds (b) he calls (c) he raises?
    Posted by grantorino
    Well personally, I wouldn't check the flop. If you are going to raise pre with A2 then you need to bet out when you hit. But as it is now that it's been checked when I c/r

    A) he folds - I win the hand, the end.

    B) he calls - He's drawing or hasn't paired the A. I'm getting it all in on the turn almost regardless of what comes out.

    C) he raises - the ball is in your court, it's down to you. You can pass the hand for cheaper than what he ended up paying, or you can get it all in. Personally, I pass and wait for a better spot, don't like Ace rag as it is.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: BH:
    In Response to Re: BH : Well personally, I wouldn't check the flop. If you are going to raise pre with A2 then you need to bet out when you hit. But as it is now that it's been checked when I c/r A) he folds - I win the hand, the end. B) he calls - He's drawing or hasn't paired the A. I'm getting it all in on the turn almost regardless of what comes out. C) he raises - the ball is in your court, it's down to you. You can pass the hand for cheaper than what he ended up paying, or you can get it all in. Personally, I pass and wait for a better spot, don't like Ace rag as it is.
    Posted by Lambert180
    So when he folds its bad, you had the best hand

    How do you know when he flats he doesnt have an A or better? If he doesnt do you think he calls a turn shove

    If he raises I would think we have to fold, but he could easily shove a flush draw.

    Imo check/raise is by far the worst option, especially as our read is there is a big chance hes bluffing. If you know he flats with worse far more often than he folds or raises it might be fine, but I dont think we do
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