NL4 for beginners

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

I started September with £100 in my account, with the targets of getting up to £120, playing enough to get a whole £5 cash for points for the first time, and playing at least 2 DTD's in the month. On Sunday 24th I was at £125, had played 2 DTD's, and was over the 500 points. I should have stopped there!!! I've had an awful week, beat after beat after beat. KK aipf cracked by rag aces, running straights, 4 flushed & underpairs hitting sets. Set over set twice, out kicked on flopped trips and AQ on a QQ7 flop undone by someone who'd called a 20p raise pre with Q7 sooted. Account currently at £101. Couple of buy ins up for the month on nl4 cancelling out a small loss on mtts. By the end of last nights session I was playing not to lose instead of playing to win, so I'm having a short break. (going to be short of playing opportunities next week anyway) Feels a bit as though the stts I've played up until now have been practice and the real stuff starts here. The account balance swings in cash take a bit of getting used to although until this last dip the trend has been upwards, and I still think I'll get there.
Posted by harding10

Yh I was doing this towards end of my cash for points goal and it's a BAD was to play, you're almost hopeing for no good hands lol

harding10

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : Yh I was doing this towards end of my cash for points goal and it's a BAD was to play, you're almost hopeing for no good hands lol
Posted by Dudeskin8

It wasn't the points, I already had 500 and was never going to make 1000.

It's more to do with not dropping back below £100 at the end of the month, although I've been below quite a bit early in the month. Daft really.

Bottling out of hands when there was a reasonable chance I would be ahead, set mining small pairs and still betting timidly when hitting, generally expecting to be behind every time. And the really stupid thing is I'd probably have done a couple more buy-ins if I hadn't been playing that way.

harding10

If the standard open raise at NL4 is 20p, should I be making it 40p at NL8 or would 24p or 32p be enough?



Going to have a pop at NL8 at the start of the month and see how it goes. I was a decent way towards getting through NL4, but a couple of mtt cashes have got me up to 27BI's for NL8.

I'm aware I haven't completely beaten nl4 so if I'm not comfortable and drop back below 25 BI's I'll go back to NL4 for a while.

rancid

Most have said play the same as NL4 

If you have cashed in MTT's and this has increased your BR, like you say don't get carried away ) Just be cautious moving to NL8

You have a very solid game so you should be ok tbh

Glenelg

Hi Harding,
just to say really enjoying this thread!  Keep it going.  I'm fairly knew and only play Dym's, MTT &STT currently but I have cash in my sights.  Your & Don's thread have some excellent advice & strategy.
GL
pad

harding10

I'm not sure I can keep grinding cash tables trying to get up to even 500 points for c4p, I think it will kill off my enjoyment of the game. I've not made a disastrous start to nl8 by any means, I'm just above break even, but I'm really struggling for the motivation to play. Maybe I'll feel differently later in the month, but at the mment I'll probably keep playing cash but at a lower volume than currently.

What my switch to the cash tables does seem to have done is to have improved my tournament game. The extra volume of multi tabling even low stakes cash has shown up some leaks in my game which I've done a bit of work on.

I've played 9 tournaments in the last 2 weeks with a 1st, 2nd, 8th and a min cash, and have returned over 5 times my buy-ins as profit. I know it would be nearly impossible to maintain this level long term, but hopefully this is more than just a heater.

harding10

Can't get my head around what's happening with my game regarding cash.

I've been using a mixture of DOHHHHHHH's low stakes cash guide and a post about low stakes cash from Dudeskin alongside my own game, which is fairly nitty.

The extra help from their tips has improved my mtt and stt results quite markedly, but I can't seem to make headway at micro cash playing that way.

Whether that's any more than variance I can't say, but I shall be having a break from cash for a while.

pomfrittes

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

Can't get my head around what's happening with my game regarding cash. I've been using a mixture of DOHHHHHHH's low stakes cash guide and a post about low stakes cash from Dudeskin alongside my own game, which is fairly nitty. The extra help from their tips has improved my mtt and stt results quite markedly, but I can't seem to make headway at micro cash playing that way. Whether that's any more than variance I can't say, but I shall be having a break from cash for a while.
Posted by harding10

  Hi Harding, it can be very frustrating when you play Nitty at NL4 due to the fact that raises are not respected, the fact you are playing premium hands strongly is not noticed etc etc. No good raising big with your premiums and picking up 3 or 4 callers which obv. reduces your odds of still being in front by the river.

  I know you have a solid game and can obviously read the texture of the board, therefore my advice to you would be to stick at it but widen your range, see more flops cheaply and then reassess. If you are playing against less experienced players, which at the micro levels you invariably are, you need to be getting involved in more hands not less.

 Only my opinions but it works for me.

rancid

Don't play by the book, use it as a guide

If you can see a flop cheaply, which is always possible at NL4 - do so with cards that flop and draw to the nutz or 2nd nutz

You will stack a lot of players when you hit high end straights and flushes as everyone is in there with any 2 

Widen your range but play them according to the situation

For example K3s, A4s, fine to limp in - if you catch flush draw then if someone comes along your going to stack them with your bigger hand

Mix it up a bit, you can at NL4 because no one raises )

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

Don't play by the book, use it as a guide If you can see a flop cheaply, which is always possible at NL4 - do so with cards that flop and draw to the nutz or 2nd nutz You will stack a lot of players when you hit high end straights and flushes as everyone is in there with any 2  Widen your range but play them according to the situation For example K3s, A4s, fine to limp in - if you catch flush draw then if someone comes along your going to stack them with your bigger hand Mix it up a bit, you can at NL4 because no one raises )
Posted by rancid

Yeah, as long as you do the exact opposite of this you'll be fine.

unknown_username

NL4 is what it is. If two cards can work together (suited connectors, Ax suited etc) then in late position i dont mind a limp-a-long if the table is playing really weak and i get to see loads of cheap flops in position, this can only be good news. Hit your monster and start shovelling the chips in the middle. I wouldnt advocate open limping with these hands but use position to your advantage when playing these hands. 

Dudeskin8

Yes played correctly like after around 30 limps then obvz it's just about ok but I'd always discourage limping with anything but small pairs as it takes you closer to being a simple bingo player and that's not what you want to do at NL4, well unless you play for fun.

rancid

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

Yes played correctly like after around 30 limps then obvz it's just about ok but I'd always discourage limping with anything but small pairs as it takes you closer to being a simple bingo player and that's not what you want to do at NL4, well unless you play for fun.
Posted by Dudeskin8

lol

fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4

fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called

fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz

fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop

fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands

harding10

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : lol fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4 fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands
Posted by rancid

Fact - I very rarely c-bet multiway if I miss, and even more rarely if I'm out of position.

Fact - I'm very rarely bluffing outside of c-betting in postion.

Fact - I'm NEVER NEVER NEVER limping pe flop with value hands.

FACT - I'm completely failing to see how limping with junk is going to improve my micro cash game and results.

EvilPingu

With regards to limping at NL4, it is something you can use with certain hands and reads on the table IMO. For example, if there's hardly any raises pre-flop, and I pick up 78s UTG, I don't really want to be raising, and getting called by someone with ATC who is likely still ahead of me with an over card. However, I don't really want to be folding a hand like that which flops well, and if I hit the flop, will likely result in me stacking somebody, so I do limp on occasion at NL4. Will also do this with small pocket pairs, looking to set mine occasionally - If I have 22, I would normally just fold, but on a table with hardly any pre-flop action, I'm happy to pay 4p to see a flop and if I don't hit a 2, just check/fold. It's only cost me 4p, and that's worth it if I stack someone when I flop my set, which is about a 6/1 shot.

I would never dream of limping in on a higher stakes game. However, at NL4, it's not always the worst play in the world with certain hands assuming you have the discipline to throw them away if you don't see the flop you're after, which I imagine most regulars on here would.

debdobs_67

limping on occasions can be profitable , overall limping is awful

Dudeskin8

Small pairs up to say 88 UTG and UTG+1 is fine to limp as you get main value from flopping sets and if you get raise behind calling is still fine given they have decent stack behind, when you raise yourself say to 3-4x then get 3bet to 8-9x it is now awkward to play plus you'remost likely OOP.

With SC's open limping in ANY position is pretty awful as far as I'm concerned, if you have 2-3 limpers and you're on the button/CO then it might be ok but in general I prefer a fold as it's hard to flop anything decent and if you don't flop 2pr/trips it'll just be draws and even then you'll ALWAYS be a dog to a made hand so longterm a loser as you have hardly any FE at NL4 so it's all about hitting the draw.

Another point that I think is important is that if you even think about open limping with SC's it shows you are possibly bored and hence need to play more tables imo.

rancid

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : Fact - I very rarely c-bet multiway if I miss, and even more rarely if I'm out of position. Fact - I'm very rarely bluffing outside of c-betting in postion. Fact - I'm NEVER NEVER NEVER limping pe flop with value hands. FACT - I'm completely failing to see how limping with junk is going to improve my micro cash game and results.
Posted by harding10

You not listen ! I am not having a go at you, just giving you some advice as maybe you game is very predictable which in turn makes it very boring for yourself (

Don't be afriad to limp along with marginal hands (not junk) that flop and draw to the 2nd nuts/nuts

It is not beneficial to be raising these hands al NL4 in general as you go multi way and therefore you c betting/bluffing more  than you should be - which is not advisable at NL4 unless you have enough equity

Limping in general is bad, limping in NL4 is fine with certain hands from certain postions
Look at hands and there potencial

ie. 2 limps , you have KJs, raise or limp ? fine to limp
Potencial str/flushes/good two prs/ good top pairs

Players at NL4 will limp with any 2 especially if there suited or anyway connected
These players are playing poker bingo, exploit these by playing the same but with the nutz/2nd nutz drawing hands and not Q9s )

Take my advice or leave it tbh, I ain't no expert

IMO there's too much "don't ever limp" on SKY and frankly while this perfectly true, this is not the case at NL4 - why you ask ? Because they will let you limp at NL4 and you can stack them with the better hand - also it's a differant game to other cash levels and MTT/DYM/STT where limping acheives nothing

BTW you can narrow your limping range so you do not leak, I'll leave you to work that one out

remember this is not gospel - it's just my opnion

pomfrittes

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : You not listen ! I am not having a go at you, just giving you some advice as maybe you game is very predictable which in turn makes it very boring for yourself ( Don't be afriad to limp along with marginal hands (not junk) that flop and draw to the 2nd nuts/nuts It is not beneficial to be raising these hands al NL4 in general as you go multi way and therefore you c betting/bluffing more  than you should be - which is not advisable at NL4 unless you have enough equity Limping in general is bad, limping in NL4 is fine with certain hands from certain postions Look at hands and there potencial ie. 2 limps , you have KJs, raise or limp ? fine to limp Potencial str/flushes/good two prs/ good top pairs Players at NL4 will limp with any 2 especially if there suited or anyway connected These players are playing poker bingo, exploit these by playing the same but with the nutz/2nd nutz drawing hands and not Q9s ) Take my advice or leave it tbh, I ain't no expert IMO there's too much "don't ever limp" on SKY and frankly while this perfectly true, this is not the case at NL4 - why you ask ? Because they will let you limp at NL4 and you can stack them with the better hand - also it's a differant game to other cash levels and MTT/DYM/STT where limping acheives nothing BTW you can narrow your limping range so you do not leak, I'll leave you to work that one out remember this is not gospel - it's just my opnion
Posted by rancid

  Post of the week IMO, everything i wanted to say but couldnt be bothered. I have lost count of the number of players who moan they cant beat NL4 or it is boring playing ABC, Uber nitty poker but do not listen to people who give advice on alternative ways to play.

 I will shut up now before i start ranting.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners : lol fact: you raise any marginal with nutz/2 nutz potential and your getting called multi way to a flop at NL4 fact: If you try and c bet a multi way pot when you miss you have a greater chance of being called fact: The only realistic chance to get paid is too flop and draw to the nutz/2nd nutz fact: your not playing poker at NL4, not need to get fancy with bluffing to win pots post flop fact: NEVER NEVER NEVER limp with your pre flop value hands
Posted by rancid

Fact - You don't NEED to draw to the nuts/2nd nuts because so often people at 4NL will stack off with TPTK, TPGK, 2nd pair and much worse.

Fact - As much as you do get serial limpers at 4NL, when you raise it pre to 20p+ that does generally reduce it to make 1-2 callers.

Fact - You are playing poker... it's merely a different style of play, and it's a style that EVERYONE needs to have in their arsenal, no matter how often they choose to bring it out.

Fact - It's all very good saying limp with JTs cos you might flop the nuts, but when you do and the pot is about 12p cos no-one raised, you're gonna REALLY struggle to get his £4 in the middle unless it's a cooler for him (which is not that often)

rancid

Many ways to skin a cat, if the big bet ABC value hands ain't working for you

Try incorporating something else

STOP being told how to play and work it out for yourself, you can find a balance that works and a style that you ENJOY playing


More importantly try something that you enjoy and brings a smile to your face when playing

harding10

OK, here's ,my take on some of the hand suggestions for limping with, see what you gents think.

K3 suited - utter garbage, fold. I'd be playing 80/1 shots and probably not getting paid well enough often enough to be ev+

A4 suited - not great but a few more outs there and might just consider multi-way, but not over convinced its ev+ long term.

Suited connectors - OK, but at nl4 I'd want JT+ & multi-way, you can soon be in trouble against someone who limps any 2 sooted . I wouldn't be open limping from early position hoping others might join the party.

KJ suited - personally I'd raise with that, even with limpers in the pot.

Feel free to shoot holes in that.

rancid

try

Axs, broadway cards, suited connectors and gap connectors, small prs

see how you get on

remember if you limp 10 bigs in a 2 hour session, it's not that bigger deal as long as your getting paid on your big value hands


what I would say is, if your in late position raise but only if you think it's going to thin the field, if your raises are getting called multi way then what are you acheiving by raising ? Only inflating a pot with a marginal hand, leaving you to miss the majority of the time and therefore your c bet has to be bigger - c betting multi way when you miss is never good as there's a greater chance someone has connected with the flop
If you going to c bet with a missed pre flop raise with K10s, then ensure the siuation is good, are you IP, how many oppo, who is oppo, texture of flop....if you feel your c bet will not get through then dont' bother
If you hit TP oop then consider checking on dry flops..
As soon as your hand turn into a big value hand then revert to rule number 1. BET BIG

Also if you pick up equity on flop, bet IP - check OOP

HAVE FUN )
I feel if you vary your game it will only do you good m8'ty

Lambert180

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

try Axs, broadway cards, suited connectors and gap connectors, small prs see how you get on remember if you limp 10 bigs in a 2 hour session, it's not that bigger deal as long as your getting paid on your big value hands what I would say is, if your in late position raise but only if you think it's going to thin the field, if your raises are getting called multi way then what are you acheiving by raising ? Only inflating a pot with a marginal hand, leaving you to miss the majority of the time and therefore your c bet has to be bigger - c betting multi way when you miss is never good as there's a greater chance someone has connected with the flop If you going to c bet with a missed pre flop raise with K10s, then ensure the siuation is good, are you IP, how many oppo, who is oppo, texture of flop....if you feel your c bet will not get through then dont' bother If you hit TP oop then consider checking on dry flops.. As soon as your hand turn into a big value hand then revert to rule number 1. BET BIG Also if you pick up equity on flop, bet IP - check OOP HAVE FUN ) I feel if you vary your game it will only do you good m8'ty
Posted by rancid

And that's why you DONT play marginal hands at this level. Stick to strong hands and then when you are inflating the pot with the likes of AA/KK/QQ/AK they're gonna come back to you more often than not. A big thing about 4NL is not get attached to big cards that don't hit... the numbers of times I'm speechless when I've seen someone call my 3/4pot bet on the flop, turn and river with AK on say 3589Q board.  It's so easy to get paid off at this level so you raise your hands like AK/AQ and when you hit TPTK or TP very good kicker, you're in great shape to stack someone, don't hit, get rid.

rancid

Harding know's how to play ABC big hands, big bet NL4 poker

It would seem he has got to a point where he want's to adapt, hence the advice

Correct me if I am wrong Harding but it looks like your saying your not getting paid playing ABC using the guides and finding it difficult at the moment. I merely offer something else to mix in to your current solid game.

Lambert180

I'm sorry but this style of play will NEVER not work under the right circumstances. I've done it myself, like starting to doubt my game when things aren't going your way.

But I guarantee if he's sticking to the strategy and still isn't winning, its either down to bad table selection or just run bad, and nothing to do with the strategy.

rancid

The ABC strategy is fine

There's more ways to skin a cat, if you think not then I wish you good luck

harding10

Ok, I'll just clear a few things up.

I've been around since Feb 2010, and I've managed to make a small profit most months playing mainly low stakes deepstacks and stt's. I play pretty tight, patient ABC poker with good BRM, and have never bust my original £5 deposit playing like this. Purely recreational.

I've had a go at micro stakes cash over the last 3 months, and taken my game just a bit more seriously. I've made a couple of changes to my game from cash tips posted by Dudeskin and DOHHHHHHH, nothing massive but it's plugged a couple of leaks in my game. My C-betting oop is now more restricted, and there are hands I would now raise with but not call a raise with.

Playing like this I've doubled my BR over the last 3 months, but it's all come through the changes improving my tournament results, I've about broken even with cash. October and November have been my highest profit mtt/stt months so far. It's leaving me frustrated with cash at the moment.

Hopefully Lambert's right and it has more to do with table selection and variance. Whichever way I'm starting December on stt's and mtt's and playing low volume, and I'll have another go at nl4 when my head's clearer.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: NL4 for beginners:

The ABC strategy is fine There's more ways to skin a cat, if you think not then I wish you good luck
Posted by rancid

Oh I most definitely agree with you that there are multiple ways to remove the skin of felines. I just think Dohhhh and many others have found the easiest way of doing it against the serial limp/callers at these levels.

I would never expect to play the same game I do at these levels, when I play 20NL or higher but that's poker isn't it, you adapt your game to the table.

harding10

Played a little nl20 to qualify for the grotto tourney at Christmas, played slightly differently than I had at nl4 and made a profit doing it which gave me something to think on.

Went back to nl4 after Christmas playing this same way and have quietly worked my way up since. Started with £100 BR and was over £160 by about the 20th of January. Moved up to a bit of nl8 and hit a couple of bad beats straight away plus some mtt losses. Went back down to nl4 where I had a period of AA and KK getting cracked almost every time.

I'm through that again for now and have quite a comfy BR for nl8 again although I'm currently playing mostly nl4 and increasing tables played to 6. Now I'm more confident with the decisions I'm making playing a couple of extra tables is becoming much easier, where a month ago 4 was pushing me a little bit.

Due to current circumstances off of the tables I'll probably keep going with mainly higher volume nl4 and a little nl8 if there's an attractive table until I'm at £200+ then mix nl8 and nl10.