Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : What worse hands can don call with on river?
Posted by grantorino

i see your point, but i thought i could get more value out of the hand he called the turn with. If he calling turn with overpr then he going to call river with the same as turn virtually puts him deeper.
The point is m8 my read was spot on and he hit basically runner runner -  i was UL so...
If he misses river then he folds right - maybe he does call
Also If i shove river it looks mega big and so it's also a semi bluff and he may lay down a hand that beats me
So overall there's no way on earth I can check river, for me it just looks mega weak and basically says "come and take this pot" big bet flop, big bet turn and check river - blahhhhhhhh - thats a bad story

grantorino

well I doubt he ever calls river with an overpair, doubt you bluff much out either. I think its a c/f, if you think checking makes you look so weak he bluffs here(I doubt it) then c/c

I think you are both levelling yourselves a bit with how ye are reading each other for certain ranges here tbh

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

I think you are both levelling yourselves a bit with how ye are reading each other for certain ranges here tbh
Posted by grantorino

yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so...
How can i do more then
1. get the range correct
2. bet value against that range

i don't think i am levelling myself too much here, v another player who calls flop bet then i may widen there range to SD/FD's and play accordingly -

do you think it's bad for me to assume he will not call the flop bet with a draw, like you say am I really levelling myself too much

Dudeskin8

LOLz, just danny play REGS !!!

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

LOLz, just danny play REGS !!!
Posted by Dudeskin8

amen to that brother, now where's my ez money list :S

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : amen to that brother, now where's my ez money list :S
Posted by rancid

Rancid i guess i need to appoligise seems like me posting this has got you a grilling. I will say i sat down on this table after Rancid in his defense there was a name on the table that matched my list when i sat down. not sure if they where still here when this happened i was 90% focused on my other table for reasons which my diary explains.

The reason why i left rancids name was purley because the hand was against a better regular and someone who i knew would put in put into the hand on the clinic anyways.

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Rancid i guess i need to appoligise seems like me posting this has got you a grilling. I will say i sat down on this table after Rancid in his defense there was a name on the table that matched my list when i sat down. not sure if they where still here when this happened i was 90% focused on my other table for reasons which my diary explains. The reason why i left rancids name was purley because the hand was against a better regular and someone who i knew would put in put into the hand on the clinic anyways.
Posted by The_Don90

No problem Don, my play pre was loose and spewy and deserves to be looked at because if not then we never become better players

I love to tear hands apart so I love a grilling )

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so...
How can i do more then 1. get the range correct 2. bet value against that range
Posted by rancid

the thing is his range that gets to the river isnt the same as his river calling range. he should be folding all 1 pair hands on the river, thus turning your bet into a bluff, the overpairs that he is calling turn with should be like QQ+ with a club redraw, that has your bluffs beat (if you ever are) but also has some equity vs your made hands, when the club doesnt come in he should be dumping them all


if you think that he is never folding overpairs on the river, hardly ever has a stronger made hand on the turn because he hasnt raised at any point on a very wet board then you probably can vbet here.  although i think he would play alot of 8x hands like this aswell

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : the thing is his range that gets to the river isnt the same as his river calling range. he should be folding all 1 pair hands on the river, thus turning your bet into a bluff, the overpairs that he is calling turn with should be like QQ+ with a club redraw, that has your bluffs beat (if you ever are) but also has some equity vs your made hands, when the club doesnt come in he should be dumping them all if you think that he is never folding overpairs on the river, hardly ever has a stronger made hand on the turn because he hasnt raised at any point on a very wet board then you probably can vbet here.  although i think he would play alot of 8x hands like this aswell
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Yeah indeed when he calls turn I was thinking over pr with a club.

When the club doesn’t come on the river, I thought that he may call anyway but not bluff pr+club if I check. So my river shove was 50% value 50% bluff. I felt this was my only option and maybe I could also fold out his very slim range if he was beating me.

I guess if no club on river he should dump all 1 prs leaving me with c/c or c/f depending on if I think he would bluff shove river.

So yeah I kinda seeing the sense in c/f or c/c as a better option

Overall if on the river we was a lot deeper then I probably would have c/c or c/f – essentially on the river he either has it or not

grantorino

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : yeah maybe but my read pre and after he calls flop is bang on so... How can i do more then 1. get the range correct 2. bet value against that range i don't think i am levelling myself too much here, v another player who calls flop bet then i may widen there range to SD/FD's and play accordingly - do you think it's bad for me to assume he will not call the flop bet with a draw, like you say am I really levelling myself too much
Posted by rancid

Just because he had an overpair this time does not mean you have his range correct, his range can obv be wider. I dont know what don does, but I would expect him to flat more than overpairs

If he thinks you only lead pot with strong hands I think he can call with strong draws, he should have decent implied odds ip (havent looked back at hand, so stack size may preclude this). Personally Id rather have a good draw when you lead that flop than have 99.

Also as lolraise says, even with range you give him I dont think you can vbet river, you are ahead of some of that range but its tiny as it has all nearly made a set or straight and he folds some of it anyway

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : Just because he had an overpair this time does not mean you have his range correct, his range can obv be wider. I dont know what don does, but I would expect him to flat more than overpairs If he thinks you only lead pot with strong hands I think he can call with strong draws, he should have decent implied odds ip (havent looked back at hand, so stack size may preclude this). Personally Id rather have a good draw when you lead that flop than have 99. Also as lolraise says, even with range you give him I dont think you can vbet river, you are ahead of some of that range but its tiny as it has all nearly made a set or straight and he folds some of it anyway
Posted by grantorino

check my last post, c/f - c/c probably best on river
as for flop - when i am called there they could have a draw yes.
And I could be taking myself to value town here but I can b/f turn - v other players at NL4 i am actually checking the turn.
I think only because it's Don and I have so much info on him regarding his BR and stuff I did feel confident i was ahead on the turn, but yeah my river shove is questionable.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : check my last post, c/f - c/c probably best on river as for flop - when i am called there they could have a draw yes. And I could be taking myself to value town here but I can b/f turn - v other players at NL4 i am actually checking the turn. I think only because it's Don and I have so much info on him regarding his BR and stuff I did feel confident i was ahead on the turn, but yeah my river shove is questionable.
Posted by rancid

can we confirm that my low bankroll isnt effecting my desisions.

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4 : can we confirm that my low bankroll isnt effecting my desisions.
Posted by The_Don90

lol
No but it did help me define you starting range, so I can reasonably assume you not calling a 5x raise loose with suited cons etc... with a BR of 8 BI's
On the flip it also meant that I could apply more pressure, either force you into making a mistake or fold

Can I also confirm when I bet I have it 100%, and my miniumum is 2 pr

Luke_Jones

Guy Played his 2 pair well knew where he was in the hand and got donked on the river why the hell would you flat call with 99 on that flop. turn brings a flush and 4 to a straight you hit your 2 outer to make a set on the river and your hand still looks like you might be beat

rancid

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

Guy Played his 2 pair well knew where he was in the hand and got donked on the river why the hell would you flat call with 99 on that flop. turn brings a flush and 4 to a straight you hit your 2 outer to make a set on the river and your hand still looks like you might be beat
Posted by Luke_Jones

Thanks Mum )

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Top set Very Wet board v reg. NL4:

Guy Played his 2 pair well knew where he was in the hand and got donked on the river why the hell would you flat call with 99 on that flop. turn brings a flush and 4 to a straight you hit your 2 outer to make a set on the river and your hand still looks like you might be beat
Posted by Luke_Jones

i had alot more than 2 outs

3x 6's.
3x 7's
3x 8's
2x 9's
9x clubs

i make that a total of 20 outs.

Hardly in terrible shape.

Also i flat as i know theres every way my opponent can have me crippled on that flop. Admitedly turn is probably a fold, as ive stated i was drinking while playing and got attached to the one outer straight flush possibility.

Luke_Jones

you said it right there is every possibilty you was crushed on the flop but flat calling dont tell you anything and ok now you can see his cards you can say you have those out's if the board pairs on the river makes your hand look even worse. you raise the flop you would find out where you was and save money in the long run. how often is your pocket 9's an over pair to the board ALL THE WAY what if the turn had an over card you still call down all the way with an over card 4 to a straight and a flushed board?