The greed of online poker..

AMYBR

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker..:

I've read through this thread with interest. So query . . . is online poker rigged to favour newly signed up players? The ability to do it is certainly there, as is the incentive; it's in the operator's best interests for players to return and play at higher level tables and in tourney's with greater buy-ins. I've argued before that despite both of the above factors, those who run online poker sites are making so much from the rake and buy-ins they've really got no reason to run the business risk of rigging things. Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it of course. As he admits, the tale given by the OP doesn't provide any sound evidence of any tampering with the game, and is purely anecdotal. But at some point, there must be sufficient amounts of anecdotal evidence to provide at least some basis for thinking things are not as they should be - the old adege that "there's no smoke without fire" has been in use for a very long time. Problem is, even if the issue was thoroughly investigated, because of the technology in use (as someone has stated) only a programming expert, who examined the underlying code in great detail, would really be able to tell - the rest of us just have to take the word of the operators that the random number generator is truely random. I did once see some casino software (virtual card game as it happens) that was being touted with the line that you can "set" the payout rate anywhere from 70%-99.5% - so how could that be achieved without tampering with the underlying RNG?? I think the findings of the independent certification bodies that supposedly check the integrity of the RNG can be taken with a large pinch of salt, as I don't believe they have the technical capacity, or are willing to spend the money necessary to buy it in, to do the job properly. No different from the online casino licences issued by the Gaming Authority of Alderney not being worth the paper they're written on - opportunist job creation if there ever was such a thing. The chances of them taking action against anyone abusing their "licence" priviledges is zero. So we just have to make our own judgements based on our own first, and second hand experience. The real greed of online poker is in the rake (in my case c16%) or the SNG buy-ins - that on this site are a minimum of 10%. Compare that with the worst HE on a gaming floor - 5.2% on casino stud poker - and you can see why there's no need to fiddle, It's interesting that in Atlantic City, the gaming commission has banned the use of the Big 6/8 bets on craps tables as they're considered them to be unfair to punters with a HE of 9.09% (interesting though that the hard ways prop bets are up to 16.67 for rolling a "7" ??). As for the graph that was put forward as proof that players can improve their game to a point where they consistently turn a profit playing poker . . . well, the less said the better - statistically insignificant sample and heavily skewed by what looks to be a single instance (presumably a big tourney win). Unfortunately, due to the variance factors profit at any one point in time doesn't necessarily mean consistently playing a winning game. I made a profit playing roulette once, so does that mean the 37 notched wheel can be beaten??? I think not. Good cards everyone.
Posted by Goethe

Great post.  Just wanted to expand upon the highlighted comment.

I've made my opinion known in the past, but there comes apoint when you need to hold your peace, as its unfair to continually disrupt a community.  But on the highlighted comment, I would argue that if online poker does hold the potential for corruption then I dont think the rake would be the primary cause.  I think it would be more geared for client retention in the long run.  It wouldnt be difficult to build a "near miss" sytem into the basic algorthym of the program, creating the belief that players can always "nearly win".  So long term customer retention would be the focus I believe.

Again, great post bud.

baggs

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker..:

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker.. : I'm sure 300 games is sufficient volume to cover the OP's 3 week experiment. Maybe he's still benefitiing from his sign up run good then, 4 years later .....
Posted by DOHHHHHHH[/QUOTE

Dont agree with the theory either but you're chopping and changing to suit your point . You cant continually post about variance and then post 1 players chart of less than 300 games to support your argument.

BLACK_MASS

Just saw below in askTikay and decided to paste it here.

Hello mr kendall.

I started at skypoker yesterday, having watched it on tv for a week or so, i'm a bit of A poker newbie.  I have been told by a friend that the way to win at poker is to be ultra aggressive i just wonder whether he might have a point because for my first night i went to 2p/4p cash tables bet just about everything and came out with double.  Is this actually a profitable way to play poker?  Andrew
From Andrewz081

This proves everything !  ( joke ! )
I wonder if it is a wum ? Seemes so wantonly naive.

unknown_username

Well . . . it worked for him for the short time he played, and he made a profit. Probably limping in with anything, calling all of the raises and seeing the board to the river. Easily done, especially when you're playing for pennies. But it's like the Martingale progression when playing to cover your losses - eventually he'll run out of luck and hit a streak where he calls anything and everything and his hand gets beat everytime. That's when he'll get his answer. And of course, the rake will also contribute to eating his bankroll away.

DOHHHHHHH

If only you guys spent as much time studying poker and working at your own games....

You'd probably all be good winning players, making money out of a hobby.....

If only eh?

baggs

PMSL given how often u post.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker..:

PMSL given how often u post.
Posted by baggs

Stop pwning me in the face Baggmeister!

baggs

Come play a heads up, itll be fun

drumahai05

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker..:

I've read through this thread with interest. So query . . . is online poker rigged to favour newly signed up players? The ability to do it is certainly there, as is the incentive; it's in the operator's best interests for players to return and play at higher level tables and in tourney's with greater buy-ins. I've argued before that despite both of the above factors, those who run online poker sites are making so much from the rake and buy-ins they've really got no reason to run the business risk of rigging things. Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it of course. As he admits, the tale given by the OP doesn't provide any sound evidence of any tampering with the game, and is purely anecdotal. But at some point, there must be sufficient amounts of anecdotal evidence to provide at least some basis for thinking things are not as they should be - the old adege that "there's no smoke without fire" has been in use for a very long time. Problem is, even if the issue was thoroughly investigated, because of the technology in use (as someone has stated) only a programming expert, who examined the underlying code in great detail, would really be able to tell - the rest of us just have to take the word of the operators that the random number generator is truely random. I did once see some casino software (virtual card game as it happens) that was being touted with the line that you can "set" the payout rate anywhere from 70%-99.5% - so how could that be achieved without tampering with the underlying RNG?? I think the findings of the independent certification bodies that supposedly check the integrity of the RNG can be taken with a large pinch of salt, as I don't believe they have the technical capacity, or are willing to spend the money necessary to buy it in, to do the job properly. No different from the online casino licences issued by the Gaming Authority of Alderney not being worth the paper they're written on - opportunist job creation if there ever was such a thing. The chances of them taking action against anyone abusing their "licence" priviledges is zero. So we just have to make our own judgements based on our own first, and second hand experience. The real greed of online poker is in the rake (in my case c16%) or the SNG buy-ins - that on this site are a minimum of 10%. Compare that with the worst HE on a gaming floor - 5.2% on casino stud poker - and you can see why there's no need to fiddle, It's interesting that in Atlantic City, the gaming commission has banned the use of the Big 6/8 bets on craps tables as they're considered them to be unfair to punters with a HE of 9.09% (interesting though that the hard ways prop bets are up to 16.67 for rolling a "7" ??). As for the graph that was put forward as proof that players can improve their game to a point where they consistently turn a profit playing poker . . . well, the less said the better - statistically insignificant sample and heavily skewed by what looks to be a single instance (presumably a big tourney win). Unfortunately, due to the variance factors profit at any one point in time doesn't necessarily mean consistently playing a winning game. I made a profit playing roulette once, so does that mean the 37 notched wheel can be beaten??? I think not. Good cards everyone.
Posted by Goethe

great post and bears out what i have been saying for some time. i would guarantee that sky is not rigged,they operate within the regulations.as no one can seem to get a copy of the regulations for online poker how can anyone criticize them for the way they impalement them.they don't say they use the live game regulations nor do they say they don't, no one says anything until its starts to effect the business.if each player is on a set win rate be he a newbe or not its still   his choice on weather he carries on playing.lots of people play virtual poker knowing the odds.my point is they know the machine  has a % win rate and accept the gamble.if online sites are using the same software you could say its a case of miss selling.but if they are not required to tell you thats the fault of the regulation not the operator. i have said it before and i will say it again. sites can solve the problem by publishing the regulations they are using and that would allow everyone the opportunity of making a informed decision on weather they want to play or not

dalty

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker..:

In Response to Re: The greed of online poker.. : great post and bears out what i have been saying for some time. i would guarantee that sky is not rigged,they operate within the regulations.as no one can seem to get a copy of the regulations for online poker how can anyone criticize them for the way they impalement them.they don't say they use the live game regulations nor do they say they don't, no one says anything until its starts to effect the business.if each player is on a set win rate be he a newbe or not its still   his choice on weather he carries on playing.lots of people play virtual poker knowing the odds.my point is they know the machine  has a % win rate and accept the gamble.if online sites are using the same software you could say its a case of miss selling.but if they are not required to tell you thats the fault of the regulation not the operator. i have said it before and i will say it again. sites can solve the problem by publishing the regulations they are using and that would allow everyone the opportunity of making a informed decision on weather they want to play or not
Posted by drumahai05

You raise a good point about a possible win % ratio however i feel this would be nigh on imposible to work as it would stand out like a saw thumb for anyone who uses sharkscope as most players would be on a small % loss which would be inline with the ratio,my point im trying to prove is the amount of dispropotionate run good you get when you first join which is clearly used to encourage players to stay on the site and have an inflated feeling of there own ability which if this is correct it does have a knock on effect on other players games who play against these people at that time which then leads to an unfair game as your at a distinct disadvantage against the newbie player,how many times do we play tournaments and run bad all the way through but hang in by blagging and bluffing only to wake up with a massive hand just before the bubble only to get your aa busted by 99 or qk etc to often for my liking but try proving it you can't because in poker any hand can beat any other hand at any time and no matter how many times it happens you can't prove it as the possibilty is still there everytime,yeah it looks bad but it don't prove a thing,this is why we tried the newbie theory because not everyone can be a jammy or gifted player when they first play.

owtfornowt

I've heard a rumour that horse racing is rigged and that some footballers and cricketers and snooker players and boxers have allegedly taken money to throw results. I'm going to do some research and I'll let you know the outcome. .....Jesus wept. ........Why do you think slot machines are called bandits? And what about that time Elsie won the raffle at the church fete, that was a fix. 

I lose at poker cos I'm very poor at it ...........but I like a game. ......and I like a bet..........I know the odds are against me.....but whats the problem?

dalty

Is any one in the process of trying this theory or have any experiances from other sites i would be very interested to know your thoughts either way as it is just a THEORY.