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is there ever a time to fold kings pre!

pod1pod1
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
been playing about an hr, he hasnt stepped out of line in this time although has 3bet a few timestevemc112Small blind £0.15£0.15£61.28Ozzie08Big blind £0.30£0.45£27.75 Your hole cardsKK   pod1Raise £0.90£1.35£31.49Michael_83Raise £2.10£3.45£51.67VINEY73Fold    OldBobFold    stevemc112Fold    Ozzie08Fold    pod1Raise £4.80£8.25£26.69Michael_83Raise £9.90£18.15£41.77s (havnt seen cards mind)
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2011
    Why are you 4betting if you are considering folding now?
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2011
    In cash, no there isn't.
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  • pod1pod1
    edited September 2011
    i didnt say i was considering folding, what im saying is was this a case where i should of!!!
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2011
    No, I don't think you can ever fold KK pre in a cash game when you're only 100BBs deep.
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  • jugglegeekjugglegeek
    edited September 2011
    No chance of ever folding kings pre flop. Most players would play AK, KK, or QQ in the same way. You are about 20% to win the pot even if he does have aces. If you think he does this with a worse hand 20% of the time then it's okay to call anyway. If he has aces and they hold then just reach into your bankroll and reload and be happy the next time you have aces and the other guy has kings.

    Didn't Dan Harrington say that if you fold kings pre-flop then you are thinking too much?
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  • pod1pod1
    edited September 2011
    i didnt, he did, i got lucky!stevemc112Small blind £0.15£0.15£61.28Ozzie08Big blind £0.30£0.45£27.75 Your hole cardsKK   pod1Raise £0.90£1.35£31.49Michael_83Raise £2.10£3.45£51.67VINEY73Fold    OldBobFold    stevemc112Fold    Ozzie08Fold    pod1Raise £4.80£8.25£26.69Michael_83Raise £9.90£18.15£41.77pod1All-in £26.69£44.84£0.00Michael_83Call £20.39£65.23£21.38pod1ShowKK   Michael_83ShowAA   Flop  K6J   Turn  4   River  2   pod1WinThree Kings£63.43 £63.43PrevClose windowNext
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited September 2011
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash.  This 5bet size is deadly and positions are clear indicators.  I dont love it but I van live with a fold here.

    Cant just ignore signs as clear as these.

    I think sometimes we are too quick to drop the hammer in away from table analysis.  Look at the sizing and positions.  Unless the guy is an utter tard this 5bet should scream at you to be concerned.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited September 2011
    typed and posted during your update pod.  If only 3o seconds earlier :(
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash.  This 5bet size is deadly and positions are clear indicators.  I dont love it but I van live with a fold here. Cant just ignore signs as clear as these. I think sometimes we are too quick to drop the hammer in away from table analysis.  Look at the sizing and positions.  Unless the guy is an utter tard this 5bet should scream at you to be concerned.
    Posted by AMYBR
    was waiting for this :). There are prob some situations with specific reads where you can fold KK pre, think you prob need to be deeper also

    His 5bet size doesnt really matter he's never 5b/f. Unless pod is a tard he shouldnt be 4b/f  the 2nd nuts 100BB deep when hes rarely going to be flatted by a solid opponent.

    I agree its never a fistpump here with the positions, and we see AA a decent amount. But the guy has 3bet a lot and can prob show up with QQ,AK maybe even JJ sometimes. If he cant show up with these hands, 4betting is horrible
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  • leon621leon621
    edited September 2011
    i think i remember one of your own posts a few months ago maybe i think it was titled 'its hard to fold kings but.....'. this was about someone holding kings when you believe you are clearly showing yor aces. I too think with the right reads KK can be folded in cash.
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    I'll go against the grain and say you can fold KK in cash. 
    Posted by AMYBR
    nah honestly its nearly impossible to fold in that spot, even if oppo is a nit! 1 because its a 6 max game and 2 its a cash game and 3 because you have kings;).

    i can honestly say i have been in this spot a lot! and the times your all in pre flop v AK QQ etc far outweighs the times i have been crushed by AA. 
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited September 2011
    I agree in the main grantorino.  But equally if we are just going to ignore all that our experience and knowledge tells us what is the point?  When opponent 5 bets this size and from these positions he is very rarely betting AKQQJJ.  Its an unpleaseant spot.

    We are talking of specific situations here.  We have significant information based on pos and bet sizes.  We cant simply be cavalier and say he does it with worse.

    Give you 10/1 odds Pod1 was hugely unsurprised to be snapped seeing A's.  what do we expect to see opponent to turn over here?

    Am not saying its easy or standard.  Am not saying I fold in hand online.  If positions are different or bet sizes are stronger we are always getting it in.  But look at the action.  What do we expect to see here?

    Guy has 3 bet a few times, not a lot.  He 5bets, not 4 bets.

    I'm not saying its an easy spot.  In hand its going to be awful given short decision time.  But looking at it with detachment and plenty of time, its clear we have a lot of information.
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  • pod1pod1
    edited September 2011
    bloody ell leon,good memory it was over a yr ago that one. and  it went through my head when this went down.it screamed it,but like whoami said you come up against ak a lot of times. ps that was in my impetus days , i try and hold my tongue a bit more now!
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited September 2011
    If I ran like you Pod I would never fold a hand, ever. 
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  • leon621leon621
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    bloody ell leon,good memory it was over a yr ago that one. and  it went through my head when this went down.it screamed it,but like whoami said you come up against ak a lot of times. ps that was in my impetus days , i try and hold my tongue a bit more now!
    Posted by pod1
    in all fairness i do tend to remember your posts, but thats a compliment as the best peices of advice i think i have received of this site has come from you. I dont think that post was a year ago though
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  • pod1pod1
    edited September 2011
    tnx leon,orthodox im not but i enjoy my poker and if i can help people with my limited knowledge i will.ps are you sure its not a year,bloody feels like it!
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited September 2011
    We think about folding Kings pre at NL30, Jesus.....
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  • pod1pod1
    edited September 2011
    dude,i put in previous post i WAS NOT thinking about folding kks pre,my point was SHOULD i have thought about folding kings pre? big difference bud.
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  • Batkin88Batkin88
    edited September 2011

    In a tournament early yes or if your huge in chips! In cash you would need very specific reads, however every single player who have commented on this when the player comes back over the top you all know he is holding aces here .. come on admit it. Queens he shoves AK he folds calls or shoves only hand raisng is AA, But yet everyone calls

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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited September 2011
    Its been said already pod mate but i will say it again , YES ya can fold kings pre BUT ya would have to be alot lot deeper and have a good read of the oppo
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    dude,i put in previous post i WAS NOT thinking about folding kks pre,my point was SHOULD i have thought about folding kings pre? big difference bud.
    Posted by pod1
    LOLz, NO !

    Even starting this thread is amazing lol.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited September 2011
    lol well disguised brag thread number 2455555 ;)

    obviously never fold kings pre <100bb in cash , doubt id fold it ever if im honest :P unless it was the nittiest nit of nitville then maybe
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : LOLz, NO ! Even starting this thread is amazing lol.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    you should really look at some of your own threads with AK which are pretty standard yet you dismiss others thats LOL
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : you should really look at some of your own threads with AK which are pretty standard yet you dismiss others thats LOL
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    I'd think getting it in pre with KK is a little more comfortable than AK.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : I'd think getting it in pre with KK is a little more comfortable than AK.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    obviously but im talking about hands i have seen you post which are standard but i dont say, but may start as you seem to rub everyone else down for their standard hands no?
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : obviously but im talking about hands i have seen you post which are standard but i dont say, but may start as you seem to rub everyone else down for their standard hands no?
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    I personally don't think they're amazingly standard especially against REGS who are min4betting me pre, yes I should just shove and get it in but often feel why do it when I know most I can hope for is being 42% against a guy who I have zero fold equity against and is unlikly to have AQ/AJ.

    KK is 100% different as your only losing to 1 hand.

    Also if you think a hand is standard please say why it standard, as that will help me learn, here I just don't see the point in explaining as it's quite obvious.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : I personally don't think they're amazingly standard especially against REGS who are min4betting me pre, yes I should just shove and get it in but often feel why do it when I know most I can hope for is being 42% against a guy who I have zero fold equity against and is unlikly to have AQ/AJ. KK is 100% different as your only losing to 1 hand. Also if you think a hand is standard please say why it standard, as that will help me learn, here I just don't see the point in explaining as it's quite obvious.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    lol well this hand is standard obviously but im just pointing out that so are a few of yours, in future i will put standard then but its a pretty blunt way of putting it. its better if you put why aswell :P
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : lol well this hand is standard obviously but im just pointing out that so are a few of yours, in future i will put standard then but its a pretty blunt way of putting it. its better if you put why aswell :P
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    Many hands probably are standard but I'm still learning all the time and hence I want to know if what I'm doing is 'standard' or completely wrong, if it's standard great if not I learn and get better.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre!:
    In Response to Re: is there ever a time to fold kings pre! : Many hands probably are standard but I'm still learning all the time and hence I want to know if what I'm doing is 'standard' or completely wrong, if it's standard great if not I learn and get better.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    haha ok ill bare in mind and put standard, obviously i will explain why i think its standard too out of courtesy. We are all still learning and always will be
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited September 2011

    The contributors have taken a non-standard line throughout this thread.


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