How should i have played this hand?

sillymunch

Just a bit of fore knowledge the villain in question can only be described as a maniac player, was wondering how you would of responded to this?

Hand History #415440398 (00:38 18/09/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
33allin	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.84
tinytren24	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£12.46
	Your hole cards	Q J
sparky68	Raise		£0.08	£0.14	£3.91
The_Don90	Fold
foolhows	Fold
sillymunch	Raise		£0.24	£0.38	£3.70
33allin	Fold
tinytren24	Fold
sparky68	Raise		£0.32	£0.70	£3.59
sillymunch	Call		£0.16	£0.86	£3.54
Flop
		10 7 Q
sparky68	Check
sillymunch	Bet		£0.86	£1.72	£2.68
sparky68	Raise		£1.72

grantorino

I cant see most of this hand

fold to 3bet

sillymunch

In Response to Re: How should i have played this hand?:

I cant see most of this hand fold to 3bet
Posted by grantorino

ive only revealed the start of the hand xD cus i didnt fold to the 3 bet, the guy was gonna raise me no matter what cus thats the type of player he is

grantorino

well onee u hit lets go!!!!

sillymunch

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
33allin	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.84
tinytren24	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£12.46
	Your hole cards	Q J
sparky68	Raise		£0.08	£0.14	£3.91
The_Don90	Fold
foolhows	Fold
sillymunch	Raise		£0.24	£0.38	£3.70
33allin	Fold
tinytren24	Fold
sparky68	Raise		£0.32	£0.70	£3.59
sillymunch	Call		£0.16	£0.86	£3.54
Flop
		10 7 Q
sparky68	Check
sillymunch	Bet		£0.86	£1.72	£2.68
sparky68	Raise		£1.72	£3.44	£1.87
sillymunch	All-in		£2.68	£6.12	£0.00
sparky68	All-in		£1.87	£7.99	£0.00
sparky68	Unmatched bet		£0.05	£7.94	£0.05
sparky68	Show	K A
sillymunch	Show	Q J
Turn
		J
River
		6
sparky68	Win	Straight to the Ace	£7.34		£7.39

grantorino

ok if i call a 3bet with QJ Inever ever fold

sillymunch

ok ill let you see how the whole hand played out ;o now i would like a comment on it

grantorino

TP 3bet pot!!!

never ever fold

Dudeskin8

Just fold to first minraise, can't understand why you're 3betting with QJ at NL4 you just don't need to imo.

rancid

In Response to Re: How should i have played this hand?:

Just fold to first minraise, can't understand why you're 3betting with QJ at NL4 you just don't need to imo.
Posted by Dudeskin8

+1
Don't get involved with mainiacs unless your have a prem hand, or flop fantastic etc..

End up levelling yourself too much thinking they never have it when you go all in they show you the nutz
Gambling with the manaics means your basically flipping with them ie. if you do this you can not use whatever edge you do have

QJ is just not big enough to go to war with even if you have flopped TP

Eaiser spots at the level to make money trust me, you don't need to be 3 betting QJ
Do you really think you should be flatting a 4 bet with QJ ?

Seriously what flop are you happy with, broadway and 2 pr
You were behind pre so... fold
Unless you feel like getting luck, which a lot of oppo's seem to do v me )
Calling 4 bets with silly hands is kinda the norm at NL4, seriously tilting )

grantorino

if you are happy to call pre (I wouldnt) then flop is fine

Batkin88

open fold pre at this level, if your playing the player yeah once hit get it in. But the min raise and then 4 bet is too strong for QJ regardless

debdobs_67

This was my reply on the other thread

Re: how should i of played this hand? posted at 18/9/2011 10:25 AM BST on SkyPoker.com

debdobs_67 Posts: 2373 First: 2/8/2009 Last: 18/9/2011

Dont care what his range is , obv very very wide BUT i'd want better than QJ to start muckin about

Lambert180

Yeah definitely agree that you don't 3bet pre here, for this exact reason, you don't know what to do now.

I know you should bet big when you hit at 4NL but I think pot betting here might be a bit much. If he is a maniac then I assume you can't rule out him having Q10, Q7, 107 (not saying he has to have this) but if he is a maniac, when you bet the pot, and he does a tiny re-raise, surely you don't know if he has one of the above hands, or Qx or 10x or 7x or QQ/TT/77 or KQ or AQ because he's a maniac and could do this with any of them. So you're continuing on, risking your entire stack (if you carry on) when you don't really have a clue where you are.

That's why 3betting these average hands gets you into trouble.

unknown_username

FWIW, i wouldnt 3-bet either. When he cold 4-bets you he's basically played his cards face up. 

Lambert180

Sorry but please explain to me if I'm wrong but I don't see any cold 4-betting here, or rather any 4-betting at all??

Pre - Sparky bets, Silly re-raises (2bets if you will), and Sparky 3bets (no 4bet there). Even if you class Sparky's inital bet as a raise (because it's more than a blind), then Silly's is a 3bet (Arguably) and then Sparky's would be a 4bet but it's not a cold 4-bet. A cold 4-bet is when you 4bet someone when it's your first action into the pot, correct?

Post flop - Silly bets, Sparky re-raises, Silly 3bet-shoves and Sparky calls.

Where are these 4bets? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

P.S. Sorry if I'm just being a picky barsteward

Batkin88

i always thought the blinds are the 1st bet

Lambert180

I've always thought of them as essentially the equivelant of antes so the first bet is the first amount someone voluntarily puts into the pot, but thats why I added, even if it is a 4bet, it's definitely not a cold 4-bet which is obviously scary.

Either way, just fold pre but yeah

AcidMan27

A 3-bet is the 2nd raise, so a 4-bet is the raise after the 3-bet which is what sparky does here pre-flop.

Lambert180

Ok but as I said, it's NOT a cold 4-bet. I was replying to Dr Sharp really who said it was a cold 4-bet

sillymunch

ok everything taken on board fold pre, but as played did he have the odds to make the call?

pod1

am i wrong here , but it IS a cold 4 bet! isnt a cold 4 bet ,3bets after blinds with no cards down.

Lambert180

I thought a cold 4-bet was where you've 4-bet and it's your first action into the pot.

i.e. you've come into the pot cold.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: How should i have played this hand?:

I thought a cold 4-bet was where you've 4-bet and it's your first action into the pot. i.e. you've come into the pot cold.
Posted by Lambert180

This is correct

also lol ur 3b QJ just fold pre ffs

sillymunch

ok this is getting rediculous now, theres no way i would expect somebody to write a list of cards i can raise with etc etc, but why start getting all mardy with me cus i raise with QJ?

firstly i keep getting the same responces, Tighten up your game, so i tighten up my game, and its still not tight enough, i get told, oh you dont raise enough, and now im raising enough you still moan at me for raising with the wrong cards, how is anybody supposed to learn when people are more then willing to criticize but not comment on the fact that after i hit i offered him 2:4 odds, and he called with 2:5 pot odds, his call was the unprofitable one, i put him all in whilst i was ahead, whilst i believed i was ahead, and i was correct, his bad play cost me, and yet the only thing people can comment on is my whole cards, ok so what do i learn from this experience, 

i learn that on NL4 even trashy raises have meaning in them

i also learn that people are willing to call with a gutshot and will get lucky

i also learn that when people tell you that the closer to the button you are the wider you can open your raise range with are liars, cus if you do that you get criticized

Maybe another lesson is fold when your ahead if the opposition is stupid enough to 3 bet you

offshoot

Whether your opponent made a bad call or not is not the important thing in this hand. You cant change how badly people play their hands or how the cards fall, you can only change your own play. If your not willing to look at your own play and take criticism then you wont improve. If you just want us to say 'wp so unlucky!' then post in BBV and not the clinic.

AMYBR

I hear what your saying sillymunch but JQ is a massively MASSIVELY overplayed hand.  3 betting here is not great, mainly due to the type of hands that are going to 4 bet or station you.  We have no real advantage postflop, infact we likely have a huge disadvantage vs a callers range

It would genuinely be better to 3 bet 89 suited here.

We shouldnt really be playing our hand here, but opponents.

I'd imagine everyones input is in the nature of constructive criticism, rather than trying to frustrate you.  There really are some great poker minds in this forum.  We all learn from each other in different ways.

But to 3bet JQ here we need to believe opener leads with worse and calls with worse, also that our 3betting range gives us an advantage over their flatting range.  Which, frankly, is going to be hugely low %/

sillymunch

the only person that ever frustrates me is YG, and its not cus of what he says but the way he says it, basically as if i should already know this stuff, i will also add, i originally thought i had opened the pot from my position, and everyone had limped in, it was only afterwards when playing back the hand i realised vilain had min raised it, now if i was opening an unraised pot with QJ is that still wrong? see i have no idea, and the criticism as much as they are trying to drill it into me, I DO NOT KNOW whether or not i can open raise with this hand, if it hadnt been raised before me, would it of been the right move, again i aint got a clue, that was the reason for the original post only showing the first portion of the hand, cus i wanted the feedback, once i revealed the whole hand, everyone was more focused on what i had played in the first hand then discussing everyone said i should of folded to the raise over the top of my raise, but as you can see he did that with a speculative hand? its not like this player is an unknown to me either, so its not like i was worried when i made the raise all in, ok the guy had 10 outs :S big deal i had a made hand, if you know somebody is like this its different then a unknown is it not?

AMYBR

Firstly, credit to you for your transparency and honesty.  Most people try to talk a good sell.  Its great to hear someone just putting themselves out there.

In regards to the opponent being a known entity: its great to have the info here, but we still want to go to this party with a bigger gun if you catch my drift.  There are so many hands that we are behind, and so many our hand plays badly against.  It doesnt matter how fishy or aggro opponent is.  Being aggro and fishy with an overall gameplan isnt such a bad thing either, because - if you forgive me -, it confuses players forcing them to overplay hands like we see here.  Much better to pick off value in this pot post flop if opponent is this bad.  Plus we are going to get an avalanche of opportunities throughout the session.  It doesnt have to be here.

In regard to YG, he's actually a pretty good guy from what I have seen.  Written word is easy to misinterpret.

sillymunch

I know he is a good guy lol, but hes just too blunt, 

Blunt with no explanation = drives me crazy cus now i know i shouldnt do something but dont know why

i have to be blunt aswell cus i know he is a good guy and is only trying to help but bluntness with no explanation is not helping me

unknown_username

In Response to Re: How should i have played this hand?:

Sorry but please explain to me if I'm wrong but I don't see any cold 4-betting here, or rather any 4-betting at all?? Pre - Sparky bets, Silly re-raises (2bets if you will), and Sparky 3bets (no 4bet there). Even if you class Sparky's inital bet as a raise (because it's more than a blind), then Silly's is a 3bet (Arguably) and then Sparky's would be a 4bet but it's not a cold 4-bet. A cold 4-bet is when you 4bet someone when it's your first action into the pot, correct? Post flop - Silly bets, Sparky re-raises, Silly 3bet-shoves and Sparky calls. Where are these 4bets? Please correct me if I'm wrong... P.S. Sorry if I'm just being a picky barsteward
Posted by Lambert180

Yeah, you got me! I misread it. Its not a COLD 4-bet but it is a 4-bet!

As for the bold bit, yeah, you are!!!!! ;-)

Back to the hand, doesnt matter if its cold or on fire. Decision is the same. You never feel in good shape here!

Munchy, i do understand where you are coming from with your frustration. Just ask the stupid questions, its the only way you will learn. The people on this forum actually enjoy helping people so just extract as much as possible from them. I recently read 'Harrington on cash games' volume I and II and it explains some of the finer points of cash play as well as the basics. I am sure you can pick these up from e-bay or something fairly cheap. I recommend it as you seem to have the basic math and some understanding of the game. This may take you a tad further. Just a suggestion. I learnt loads from those two books. Also, you seem to struggle with hand selection and position and you rightly ask about these things. You need to get your head around it and it really does improve your game. Alot of it is experience, you have to learn from your mistakes. You sem to be going about it the right way. Just give it a bit of time and keep going. It wont happen overnight!