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Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200?
Super active 9 handed table. Lot of straddles and re straddles. Also lot of random blind bets.....this is the company I keep 
There are two players on my left who are much better cash players than me. Immediately to their right is this crazy guy betting between 7 and 12 x blind most hands. Regardless of limpage infront. This guy does this most nights I see him. Just a wealthy degen
I finally find a hand, have AKo UTG. Limp, fairly solid player limps behind UTG+1. I obv limp knowing crazy raises, he will get stationed in a few spots, i can repop for isolation, or take down the limpage and stations pre. If he binks he binks. But my 3bet will be significant.
So I limp UTG, he makes it £14 sincerely blind. Goodish player Jams for £80ish. God awful Lag sigh cold calls for half his stack. This could be any old junk though (and was). I auto release. Not because I dont think I have the best hand, as I'm nails on sure I do.
Simply fold as I cant insure or leverage my hand post flop, can only win at showdown. Good friend is sat on my right, I sigh fold, showing him. He's a much better overall cash game player than me.
He is stunned telling me what an awful fold it is. I agree in tournament its bad to take the line pre flop (limping UTG), also perhaps folding pre. But in this case, vs these crazees, I think we can easily find better spots?
We have 1 BB invested, with two all ins infront, with a huge likelyhood of 2 behind.
There are two players on my left who are much better cash players than me. Immediately to their right is this crazy guy betting between 7 and 12 x blind most hands. Regardless of limpage infront. This guy does this most nights I see him. Just a wealthy degen
I finally find a hand, have AKo UTG. Limp, fairly solid player limps behind UTG+1. I obv limp knowing crazy raises, he will get stationed in a few spots, i can repop for isolation, or take down the limpage and stations pre. If he binks he binks. But my 3bet will be significant.
So I limp UTG, he makes it £14 sincerely blind. Goodish player Jams for £80ish. God awful Lag sigh cold calls for half his stack. This could be any old junk though (and was). I auto release. Not because I dont think I have the best hand, as I'm nails on sure I do.
Simply fold as I cant insure or leverage my hand post flop, can only win at showdown. Good friend is sat on my right, I sigh fold, showing him. He's a much better overall cash game player than me.
He is stunned telling me what an awful fold it is. I agree in tournament its bad to take the line pre flop (limping UTG), also perhaps folding pre. But in this case, vs these crazees, I think we can easily find better spots?
We have 1 BB invested, with two all ins infront, with a huge likelyhood of 2 behind.
Comments
Can't see the logic in that, especially in a cash game.
stacksizes of players? I'm fistpump jamming unless really deep
i think its an easy jam, assuming the other guy calls (having out in half his stack dont see him folding) even the side pot you will just about break even and his hand according to your post sounds weak.
I know it doesnt matter but what did they have and would you have won?
Found a delicious anaseed vodka and drank far too much of it.
I think I was 200+BB's deep at time.
A few people say I got the action I wanted here, but did I really? I wanted to isolate vs the spewbox crazee, but with the jam, the cold call (that wont fold his junk to my re jam) and spewbox definately calling behind, plus possibilty of reasonable TAG having same plan as me., we will be going aipf 5 to a board, with all the cards in the air. I cant win unless AK remains the best hand on the river, as the money will be going in 5 way pre.
Having this kind of crazy at table always stimulates this action. AK going to be the best hand a huge portion of the time.
But I dont really like the idea of racing 100ish BB's with one invested, with no ability to play post? Where is the advantage? Seems I am wrong on this though, as thread suggests. Cash isnt my strongest format admittedly.
I think my game is too glaringly risk averse.
Initial jammer had AJ, cold caller had some stupid 9d6d, UTG+1 held Kd3d craxy(est) had something like 47.
Two diamonds and a jack fell on flop, AJ winning.
Seriously though. Am fully open to being wrong. This is a question, I totally recognise my game theory is faulty at full ring cash. Is it really that bad waiting for spots where we are happier to be able to insure the money we have invested. I have no real % advantage here, its just a straight race effectively? When they are so eager to get their money in bad, why take the race, hoping our super marginal edge wins at showdown?
These guys are going to make so many mistakes through the evening, playing horrificly post. No-one going anywhere for a good 5 or so hours, being happy to reload a fair few times.
I must be wrong on this, not claiming to be right. But I actually thought this was a good fold lol, based on the fact that I have such an edge skillwise, that I neednt take a multiway flip here. But I guess this being cash, and comfortably rolled, I should be happy with the action...
Just not the way I like to play, should look at it more I guess. MTT's and S+G are by bread and butter ITM.
Do you fold AK pre-flop online? I suspect if you are honest with yourself you would admit that you are playing with scared money and didn't want to put all your money in pre-flop with ace-high.
I probably do call online, with a table with similar dynamic. But I would argue it would be due to having no dicipline online.
I'm going to re affirm my point here, but I'm not saying I'm right, just laying out my thought process so you online cash guys can pinpoint the flaw.
My opponents hands are mainly irrelevant here. I do not agree with your statement about fist pump calling unless fearing A's. Its not as though we can apply leverage post, or thin the field pre. We are effectively calling off 100bigs closing the action to furthar bets, but with a likelyhood of 2 calls behind. So vs a wide range of hands can you explain to me why we have to get it in here please? We have 1BB invested, our hand has to win at showdown vs 4 random hands. Yes we likely have 1 player dominated, but the others are going to be very live. Maybe a medium pair.
I dont know if someone wants to run it on stove? AJ 42BB 6d9d 95BB's Kd3d 90bb's AKo 200+BB's 47o 100BB's.
I'd be shocked if i was better than 28%.
38% v three with more than 90 bb
makes it a pretty profitable call, you need roughly 20% and 25% respectively
Also by taking this spot, what better spot do you lose out on?
We dont lose out on a spot, your right, but we certainly are finding a path of high resistance.
As said the table isnt breaking up for hours, why get it in in such a high variance spot?
We are getting the right price for our money I guess, but seriously, with so many spots presenting themselves throughout evening, is it worth it?
I guess I need to educate myself on this, as said cash is my weakest game. Dont get me wrong, I make money, but my approach is likely not great. Mainly as I like a low variance format. I just dont get why I'd get myself into a race here though, with no way to win but at showdown.
Lets just consider the 5 way pot, and to make the math simple lets say you have to call 100 to win 400
So 27% of time you win 400, giving you an EV of 400*0.27=+108
73% you lose 100 giveing you an EV of -100*0.73=-73
So the overall EV of calling is +35. This is a return of 35% on your gamble which is pretty good
I know this is a very simplified version (the sidepot and the fact K3 might fold obv effect things), but if you get in KK vAQ hu pre its not going to be that much better in terms of how profitable it is. Sure its possible to get much better spots postflop, but you are going to have to flop big and might throw away a lot of bbs before this happens in that kind of game. Also as I said earlier getting it in here does nothing to lessen your oppurtunities later on. If you lose smile, assure them they played the hand perfectly and reload to cover the table. It shouldnt tilt you, you know you are likely to lose
PS If my math is completely wrong (which it could easily be) someone let me know
Interesting comment you make in regard to the "You know you are likely to lose", as we do know there is a significant probability of this.
If someone had money behind, I'm happy to rejam. If ppl are folding behind I'll gamble 3 way aipf.
But I like an edge, i just dont see it here.
It was good of you to expand on your point grantorino. If the table isnt breaking I guess I should be hapy getting it in, being prepared to reload 3 out of 4, but recouping in the 1. With the added benefit of becoming a superstack.
I'm going to be a sod though and say that, for now, I'll still fold in these spots. Until I tilt less
As is stood I only made one (other?) critical mistake throughout the evening and finished 4BI's in profit.
My lines are different to most based on the fact I am a live semi-pro, and cant balance variance quickly and effectilvely at 1 table live.
My game is probably 50% math 35% Live reads 15% instict (and 8% butterscotch).
Math does not dictate my decisions, it influences reasonably to heavily. But without sounding like a huge tool my skill level through streets gives my aignificant edge throughout sessions. Am talking about games I've scouted specifically. Am not saying I can walk into any game and have an edge.
So I dont really like to flip without insurance or without an edge. I think we can universely agree, myself included now, that this fold is bad math wise. But in other ways I think its ok (perhaps
But if we take this line then we might aswell stop playing poker.
I have seen this recently in a MTT with a simple open shove UTG 15 BB -- +4 seat folded AK and showed me and said "only ace high" - o course I was like what are you doing. Then it turns out the BB folded AK aswel - lol
We may aswel just be nits and fold )
Essentially if you take the line of limping or flatting AK to induce action behind, then you should be just going with it. The more players in then yes your pecentage goes down but your price is better.
I am surprised you folded )
As said in previous post, its connected to my managment of variance and steam, which is a flaw obviously. I just dont love racing 5 way aipf with 1BB invested. But should really be a case of shrugging it off, reloading and moving on I guess.
I just hate losing big pots to those tards
Interesting thoughts from everyone and thankyou. I think I should be concentrating on extrecating my cash lines from my MTT lines (for sure) as they pretty much run in tandem.
These games always amuse me hugely. As I have a reputation for getting lucky on the river
But the people I play against do not really understand the game. They bet £20 into £140 and will get stationed in multiple spots. They click it back OOP and 3 bet horrifically bad hands oop small. Its such a juicy game where If you have a good handle on their ranges and your perceived %s on improving your hand, you get paid massively.
You just make sure you lose the minimum unconnected, getting paid hugely through streets when connecting and improving, getting the opportunity to improve cheap.
I should find a few harder games so I get as good as some of you guys. I'd be lost at a solid table
You are taking the time to make a post that is utter nonsense, not reflecting the substance or context of anything posted.
You really are the worst kind of person and I have no time for you.
EDIT: Nice edit when you realised you'd clearly misread a key element. You really think I'd fold K's there?
So your saying you can find better spots and take there money.
Nothing wrong with that but still think you should not be folding AK here if you can re load.
They didnt get me to fold through being good though. Mostly through me being bad and not seeing the point in getting it in in such a high variance spot though. Will be reffering back to this mentality in future spots.
As I've said, cash is my weakest format due to generally being risk averse. Thanks for the input all (other than the obv).
Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200?
First: 17/6/2009
Last: 24/9/2011
Posted by AMYBR
Can we keep personal insults off the forum, thanks.
Nothing worse than levelling yourself versus bad oppo.
Also you mention avoiding high varaince but you sit in a very high varaince game so therefore ie.
you know what I am saying - dont' sit in
I used to play turbo SNG's and enjoyed the high variance but it's not a great thing long term