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AJ on btn, 3bet spot?

Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
edited October 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Obvz against a REG, is this the type of hand to 3bet with as I worry any calls will only be from better or is that where 3bet calling ranges come in etc, and should I be doing it with like J10s type ones ?
STAR99 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £4.65
silva03 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £22.08
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • J
     
DN34689 Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £25.47
Bodie66 Fold        
Dudeskin8
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Comments

  • grantorinograntorino
    edited October 2011

     not usually for value v a good reg imo, unless you have history with him or know he flats 3bets oop wide (unlikely imo)


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  • crasshcrassh
    edited October 2011
    I'd say better to call, have position and then re-assess after the flop.  I really don't even think aiming for a 3-bet call is great, AJ off really isn't a hand you should be building a pot size with, it's likely to leave you with some hard decisions later in the hand, maybe playing for stacks, with what is in essence a hand that can be easily dominated.
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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC
    edited October 2011
    AJ is a bad hand to 3 bet with. The types of hands in his range that he raises UTG and calls a 3 bet with are very likely to connect well with an Ace on flop, so if you hit you hand after 3 betting and he leads out on flop you're in an awkward situation.


    You have to ask why you're 3 betting and what you will do if you hit flop, but also consider what cards he could have if he calls a 3 bet. Suited connectors or a low pair even would be better for a 3 bet on button, that way if you hit hand or it's a flop with low cards a good bet on flop can take it down/build pot.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    if he flats 3 bets OOP, then yes 3 bet 100%
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited October 2011
    Dont 3bet him unless you have far better than AJ , he is one of the regs i play against alot , and as i said on one of ure other threads he is 1 of my top 6 regs at this level
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    I'm 3betting most times here unless the opener is snug.  Don't really want to bring in the blinds with a hand that is such a bad 'nut-maker' but has decent potential to improve if behind and will be ahead/good shape most of the time against the openers range.  Ww have position, make this a heads up pot and take it down one way or another if possible.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited October 2011
    He makes TK look laggy. 
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  • step7step7
    edited October 2011
    +1 Flat and play position. Also take into account the situation! SB is only 20BB and could easily 4 bet shove, original raiser wants to take shortie on and flats the 4 bet (with AK?).. how do you feel about your 3-bet AJ now?
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    He makes TK look laggy. 
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    If the opener is like that it's probably a fold rather than a call or 3bet.
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    +1 Flat and play position. Also take into account the situation! SB is only 20BB and could easily 4 bet shove, original raiser wants to take shoprtie on and flats the 4 bet (with AK?).. how do you feel about your 3-bet AJ now?
    Posted by step7
    Quite happy to fold now and move on to the next hand, now we're behind the ranges.  Or shove if the shortie is a bad shortstack player and the original raiser still has plenty worse, but that comes with reads, readless it's now a fold.

    Let's change the scenario, everyone is saying play position.  We flat, SB calls and BB calls.  9 high flop.  Check, check, c-bet.  What are we doing and why?
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : If the opener is like that it's probably a fold rather than a call or 3bet.
    Posted by TommyD
    Really!? Fold AJ on the button to a single raise, I would never play a hand lol
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Really!? Fold AJ on the button to a single raise, I would never play a hand lol
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    Thought Dohhhh's reply was a read on the original raiser commenting he's super tight.  AJo plays awful against a super tight opener range.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited October 2011
    OK, I thought he was describing me lol
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  • step7step7
    edited October 2011
    LOL I'm guessing Tommy is a LAG. When he the raiser he wants you folding AJ on the button, when he got AJ on the button he 3 betting to make you fold. Don't turn you AJ into a bluff! Just flat call, you have a reasonable hand in position, you don't need the bettiing initiative yet!
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    If his opening range is tighter than Tikays then flat and hope for broadway )
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  • step7step7
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Quite happy to fold now and move on to the next hand, now we're behind the ranges.  Or shove if the shortie is a bad shortstack player and the original raiser still has plenty worse, but that comes with reads, readless it's now a fold. Let's change the scenario, everyone is saying play position.  We flat, SB calls and BB calls.  9 high flop.  Check, check, c-bet.  What are we doing and why?
    Posted by TommyD
    Easy fold 3BB down as our equity is now probably low and we have poor relative position to the blinds, still better than 3 betting and possibly not even getting to see a flop 8BB+ down??
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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    LOL I'm guessing Tommy is a LAG. When he the raiser he wants you folding AJ on the button, when he got AJ on the button he 3 betting to make you fold. Don't turn you AJ into a bluff! Just flat call, you have a reasonable hand in position, you don't need the bettiing initiative yet!
    Posted by step7
    Whether I am folding, calling or raising to related to reads on the opening raiser and to a lesser extent the blinds as I have explained.  Not sure what calling achieves here.  Always tricky to try to outplay 3 opponents, especially when they have good odds to play a wide margin and as was previously stated to me, one is a short-stack.
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  • huuuuumehuuuuume
    edited October 2011

    against this player raise....he is tight but lays down anything outside of the top of his range

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  • TommyDTommyD
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Easy fold 3BB down as our equity is now probably low and we have poor relative position to the blinds, still better than 3 betting and possibly not even getting to see a flop 8BB+ down??
    Posted by step7
    Enjoying this debate but gotta go out now, will continue when I get back.  Not really a big of fan of calling just to hit though, we don't hit often enough.  IMO we miss and have to fold to a c-bet on the flop more than when we have to 3bet/fold, and 3betting gives us power on the flop to a call as well as sometimes taking down the pot pre.  Then there are the times when we hit and are behind, they tend to smart a little.  Happens more with more players in.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    against this player raise....he is tight but lays down anything outside of the top of his range
    Posted by huuuuume
    very good point if he does fold to 3 bets OOP a lot ::)
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Enjoying this debate but gotta go out now, will continue when I get back.  Not really a big of fan of calling just to hit though, we don't hit often enough.  IMO we miss and have to fold to a c-bet on the flop more than when we have to 3bet/fold, and 3betting gives us power on the flop to a call as well as sometimes taking down the pot pre.  Then there are the times when we hit and are behind, they tend to smart a little.  Happens more with more players in.
    Posted by TommyD
    Tommy,

     If we put him on a very narrow range when he opens are we not flatting to hit flop big because when we do we are more likely to get his stack. Yes obviously we miss a lot of time so yes it coould be a leak over time.
    But are we not flatting here with a pocker pair for the same result.

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  • step7step7
    edited October 2011
    @Tommy - I think this is coming down to a question of risk aversion and knowing the villain's range.

    Personally I'm not happy getting into a 3-bet pot with AJ vs a "typical" reg UTG range of say 22+,AJs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo which we're a 6:4 dog against preflop and of which 75% can very happily c-bet a 9 high flop!

    That damn shorty in the SB would really put me off a 3-bet too.

    IMHO this is micro stakes - keep it simple, 3 bet for value and AJ just isn't strong enough!! I look forward to having my unbalanced 3-betting range exploited if I ever make it to 20p NL :)


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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC
    edited October 2011

    I just don't see the benefit in 3-betting with a hand like AJ, it's not recommended in anything I've come across for the reasons I've stated above. From p307 of Kill Everyone, the section on short handed online cash games:

    "If you 3-bet preflop, you should try and make sure that you've either done so with a hand that you're highly confident is best or a hand you're sure is not. Marginal hands, such as AJ, play very badly in big pots!"

    If an A comes and he plays ball he could have AQ, AK, you don't know, that's why I wouldn't 3-bet with AJ.

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  • pod1pod1
    edited October 2011
    dn does makes dude look like a loose cannon. opening range is  small very small. aj dont even hit the bottom of his range from my notes.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited October 2011
    against a nitty reg you cant 3bet AJ for value here. Nothing worse calls, lots of regs flatting range oop is close to non existant. 3bet bluffing may be an option as he may fold pps and AQ. If he calls lots with pps purely to setmine you can 3bet and cbet all flops pretty profitably

    Its all dependent on table dynamic. I generally would flat readless, but sometimes its a fold, sometimes its a 3bet
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    dn does makes dude look like a loose cannon. opening range is  small very small. aj dont even hit the bottom of his range from my notes.
    Posted by pod1
    Yep this ties in perfect with my 1st post on this thread , i got him down as a very gd reg at this level , i said b4 there are about 6 regs at this level that ya gotta be very careful against and he is 1 of em

    PS i'd luv to know what some regs at nl20 have in their notes on me ;))
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    Sometimes the basic approach of playing opposite is possibly the right move, ie 3 bet.
    I fail to see how he opens with only such a narrow range a point huuume refers to. Obviously oppo's 3 bet range is very narrow and even more so his 4 bet range.

    We can win this hand pre or on the flop if he flats OOP.
    We are not playing our cards here, a fact you must be aware of when the flop comes J or A high, or even 2 pr.



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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    Sometimes the basic approach of playing opposite is possibly the right move, ie 3 bet. I fail to see how he opens with only such a narrow range a point huuume refers to. Obviously oppo's 3 bet range is very narrow and even more so his 4 bet range. We can win this hand pre or on the flop if he flats OOP. We are not playing our cards here, a fact you must be aware of when the flop comes J or A high, or even 2 pr.
    Posted by rancid
    If you read the extract I quoted above though, AJ isn't a hand that makes sense to 3-bet with here, why not just flat it, play it if A J flops, use position if it doesn't?

    If you 3-bet, get called, and he leads out when an Ace flops, what do you do then?
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  • rancidrancid
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : If you read the extract I quoted above though, AJ isn't a hand that makes sense to 3-bet with here, why not just flat it, play it if A J flops, use position if it doesn't? If you 3-bet, get called, and he leads out when an Ace flops, what do you do then?
    Posted by BigRonnieC
    Forget we have AJ, infact forget the cards and look at exploiting the player by playing good poker.

    If he flats the 3 bet pre and leads a ace high flop we fold.
    If AJ flops and he checks, we bet - if he leads we call
    If he 4 bets pre, we fold
    If he flats the 3 bet and checks, we bet

    If we flat pre, which is fine then we are only looking to hit massive. We are only winning this pot one way by getting lucky. The same approach with set mining but the odds are greater than set mining meaning we miss so much it could be very leaky over time. The minimum we are hoping to flop is 2 pr, which is 50/1 compared to 8/1 to hit a set.
    Even if we hit two pair we may not be good, if his opening range is narrow.
    How do we like a AJK flop :s
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot?:
    In Response to Re: AJ on btn, 3bet spot? : Forget we have AJ, infact forget the cards and look at exploiting the player by playing good poker.

    Fine, but you are bluffing and if AJ has value against his opening range I would prefer 3bet a hand with less value and flat AJ

    If he flats the 3 bet pre and leads a ace high flop we fold.

    He is highly unlikely to do this

    If AJ flops and he checks, we bet
    - if he leads we call
    Do you mean a J hi flop? Why do we fold an A hi flop but call a J hi one? If you mean flop 2p+ obv we keep betting 

    If he 4 bets pre, we fold If he flats the 3 bet and checks, we bet
     
    If we flat pre, which is fine then we are only looking to hit massive. We are only winning this pot one way by getting lucky.

    Why do we have to hit in a single raised pot ip, but not when we 3bet?

    The same approach with set mining but the odds are greater than set mining meaning we miss so much it could be very leaky over time. The minimum we are hoping to flop is 2 pr, which is 50/1 compared to 8/1 to hit a set. Even if we hit two pair we may not be good, if his opening range is narrow. How do we like a AJK flop :s
    Posted by rancid
    Why would we need to flop 2 pair+? If we do just fold pre, but surely he opens stuff like pocket pairs KQ etc
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