Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4

Dozza

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DiCanio79	Small blind		15.00	15.00	1830.00
Dozza	Big blind		30.00	45.00	1980.00
	Your hole cards	A A
CharlieF29	Fold
gurung11	Call		30.00	75.00	5995.00
DiCanio79	Call		15.00	90.00	1815.00
Dozza	Raise		270.00	360.00	1710.00
gurung11	Call		270.00	630.00	5725.00
DiCanio79	Fold
Flop
		7 3 9
Dozza	All-in		1710.00	2340.00	0.00
gurung11	Call		1710.00	4050.00	4015.00
Dozza	Show	A A
gurung11	Show	A Q
Turn
		2
River
		9
gurung11	Win	Flush to the Ace	4050.00

djblacke04

lol...is a good one...9x BB raise preflop...then 57BB shove...when you 65%..basically a flip....and u lost..dont be greedy with AA and you will fair better..

Dazler

yes i too have found this trend and players dont really understand the odds of hitting a flush and when you bet to get them off it they should be folding but they dont. I had to change my style big time because of this and you wont find it as much live but online its easy to press a button and call. So many players calling with any 2 suited cards no matter how high or low like 10,2 dimonds hoping to get a flushing flop and they shove the lot, absolute crazy bingo poker for beginners as a good player knows when to fold. Just change your style when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss. 

Only thing on this hand is he did have the nut flush and 2 over cards and sometimes players will gamble i have done it with hands like this, its the ones who call with rubbish hands that make you sick.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

yes i too have found this trend and players dont really understand the odds of hitting a flush and when you bet to get them off it they should be folding but they dont. I had to change my style big time because of this and you wont find it as much live but online its easy to press a button and call. So many players calling with any 2 suited cards no matter how high or low like 10,2 dimonds hoping to get a flushing flop and they shove the lot, absolute crazy bingo poker for beginners as a good player knows when to fold. Just change your style when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss.  Only thing on this hand is he did have the nut flush and 2 over cards and sometimes players will gamble i have done it with hands like this, its the ones who call with rubbish hands that make you sick.
Posted by Dazler

lol this really is bad advice....

Any "good" player will tell you that, your logic clearly doesn't make sense.

You have a player willing to put most/all of his chips in with a worse hand than you. 

But you are advising people not to take advantage of this, and instead wait until the river, when the pot is small, and any bet is likely to make them fold?

--------------

Changing your game and playing 'worse' because you can't handle the variance is not the answer.

Dudeskin8

Their play pre isn't great obvz but once they get that flop, nut flush draw + two overs (he doesn't know you have AA) how can he fold ?

Mohican

I want players to call in this spot. Being 65% is not a coin flip.
Run this ten times, he makes 14,175 whilst you make 26,325. Almost twice what he makes. Looks profitable to me.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

lol...is a good one...9x BB raise preflop...then 57BB shove...when you 65%..basically a flip....and u lost..dont be greedy with AA and you will fair better..
Posted by djblacke04

This.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

yes i too have found this trend and players dont really understand the odds of hitting a flush and when you bet to get them off it they should be folding but they dont. I had to change my style big time because of this and you wont find it as much live but online its easy to press a button and call. So many players calling with any 2 suited cards no matter how high or low like 10,2 dimonds hoping to get a flushing flop and they shove the lot, absolute crazy bingo poker for beginners as a good player knows when to fold. Just change your style when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss.  Only thing on this hand is he did have the nut flush and 2 over cards and sometimes players will gamble i have done it with hands like this, its the ones who call with rubbish hands that make you sick.
Posted by Dazler

why have you had to change if as you are implying the villan keeps calling massive bets with little chance of hitting acording to the odds?

DAVEYZZ

ps.......you may as well of just shoved pre because he aint never folding a "massive" hand like aq

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush! : lol this really is bad advice.... Any "good" player will tell you that, your logic clearly doesn't make sense. You have a player willing to put most/all of his chips in with a worse hand than you.  But you are advising people not to take advantage of this, and instead wait until the river, when the pot is small, and any bet is likely to make them fold? -------------- Changing your game and playing 'worse' because you can't handle the variance is not the answer.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

no its not bad advice dohhhhh if you read it properly he is having problems with players calling on flush draws and losing the whole of his stack and my advice is telling him to not shove the lot in all the time and go out to players that would call on these flush draws and instead try and outplay them. As you know varience can be a sh i.t and you have to play differntly depending on the player your against, dont be so stupid in saying how bad this advice is! because you do have to change your play and i didnt say wait until the pot is small and only make a move on the river at all....... i was meaning dont bet the lot on a board like this! there are many ways to play against flush drawing hands and shoving to get them off it isnt the only move to make if you are a good player you should know this! DO YOU JUST SHOVE THEN WHEN YOU SEE A FLUSH BOARD LIKE THE ONE ABOVE AND HOPE THEY DONT HIT or DONT HAVE THE FLUSH ALREADY!

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush! : why have you had to change if as you are implying the villan keeps calling massive bets with little chance of hitting acording to the odds?
Posted by DAVEYZZ

im just stateing the trend of poor players trying to hit flushes with bad calls pre, ive had to change as if you bet big pre with say AK AQ AA or what ever and they call with say 10 3 suited flop comes 2 suited cards i hit top pair i shove they call and constantly hit, why risk your torny life or whole stack on the flop with 2 cards to come on a board like that, yes sometimes its the move you should make others its not depending on the player and your stack size. If your saying i should risk the lot with boards like this everytime i disagree, surly you make bet sizes to see where you are and induce them into calling and change your decision based on what cards come on the turn and river and decide then on how whether to raise call or fold. No point gambling with reckless players constantly or you wont win tornys its all about finding your spot and how strong you know you are.

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

ps.......you may as well of just shoved pre because he aint never folding a "massive" hand like aq
Posted by DAVEYZZ

why would he shove pre? do you do that every time you hold pk As? and would you call a shove with AQoff pre this early in a torny every time? this isnt a cash game and blinds are only 30

DOHHHHHHH

When we have a good hand, for example a set, and we know our opponent holds a worse hand, for example a King high flush draw, we do not bet to try and make them fold.

We want them to call.

If you can get 1 single good player to post on this thread that they agree with your initial advice, I will be very very surprised.

Just 1.......

logdon

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

When we have a good hand, for example a set, and we know our opponent holds a worse hand, for example a King high flush draw, we do not bet to try and make them fold. We want them to call. If you can get 1 single good player to post on this thread that they agree with your initial advice, I will be very very surprised. Just 1.......
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

How do you know for certain Dohhhhhhh      You don't      You assume,   so take the hand down and don't wait for the Sky river to give him the flush.   Which it will,   that's 4 sure.! Oh I'm a bad player I slow play to get more value and they take the pot.!

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

When we have a good hand, for example a set, and we know our opponent holds a worse hand, for example a King high flush draw, we do not bet to try and make them fold. We want them to call. If you can get 1 single good player to post on this thread that they agree with your initial advice, I will be very very surprised. Just 1.......
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

No you have taken what i said competely wrong, im saying you should bet an amount on the flop not the lot everytime, if you keep being outdrawn by flushes then risking your entire stack isnt the best way to play it on a flushing board this early on in a torny, yes you want them to call but no you dont wanna commit your torny life in the hope they call and hit and game over. As i said there is a trend for poor players who call on any draw no matter how strong so depending on who your playing why shove? 

delaney09

blah i wrote a fairly long post but seems to of vanished can't be bothered to even re write it

just say not sure why you jammed the flop but what ever you bet they are shoving you are calling

DOHHHHHHH

Well your post is there in black and white still.....

"when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss."

This whole idea of wanting people to fold when we have the best hand is totally flawed.

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

When we have a good hand, for example a set, and we know our opponent holds a worse hand, for example a King high flush draw, we do not bet to try and make them fold. We want them to call. If you can get 1 single good player to post on this thread that they agree with your initial advice, I will be very very surprised. Just 1.......
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lets just say you have hit a set of 3s then dohhhh on that board you gonna shove the lot hoping they didnt hit a flush already? how do you know your opponent holds a worse hand like a k high flush draw, arnt you speculating there?

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

Well your post is there in black and white still..... " when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss." This whol e idea of wanting people to fold when we have the best hand is totally flawed. Anyway if you k eep playing this will become obvious and you'll 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

ok prob could of worded it better what i meant by low was lower, rather than shoving the lot in.

DOHHHHHHH

Hypothetically, if we know for sure he has the A high flush draw, and we have a read that he will put all his stack in, then that's perfect, and we should do it!

But as we don't know what he's got, we bet an amount that will get him to continue with as wide a range as possible, and size our bets to get as much in as possible WITHOUT making him fold.

Making him fold the worst hand is the last thing we want to do. 

logdon

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

Hypothetically, if we know for sure he has the A high flush draw, and we have a read that he will put all his stack in, then that's perfect, and we should do it! But as we don't know what he's got, we bet an amount that will get him to continue with as wide a range as possible, and size our bets to get as much in as possible WITHOUT making him fold. Making him fold the worst hand is the last thing we want to do. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

You keep saying for sure.!  But now say we don't.?

All this in the thirty seconds before getting blinded out.   Woooooooo no wonder I'm no good.?  

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

Hypothetically, if we know for sure he has the A high flush draw, and we have a read that he will put all his stack in, then that's perfect, and we should do it! But as we don't know what he's got, we bet an amount that will get him to continue with as wide a range as possible, and size our bets to get as much in as possible WITHOUT making him fold. Making him fold the worst hand is the last thing we want to do. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lol what do you think i have been saying all this time, of coarse we want him to call and string him along to either get most of his stack or the lot, by betting rather than shoving we are getting information on the fact that he is either on a draw or less, depending on what cards come on the turn and river and what actions he takes from the betting your making. If he flat calls hes prob drawing and we can make a better desision on the turn, thats where it gets interesting and depending on whether another dimond comes out or he already has the flush we can easily make a fold with pk As if he reraises us all in. But by us betting and not shoving he dosnt know what we have and we keep controll rather than making the gamble that our As will hold, hes still gonna keep calling to the river on a draw with 2 over cards and we do want that if he hits the flush we can deduse this and make the fold and survive if he dosnt we have maximised as much of his stack without too much risk and our torny life, why take unnessesary risks on a board like that with just a pair?. Also at no point have i suggested we want him to fold! So my advise isnt as daft as you say it is and you are kind of agreeing with me now are you not?.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: . Also at no point have i suggested we want him to fold! So my advise isnt as daft as you say it is and you are kind of agreeing with me now are you not?.
Posted by Dazler

.............

In Response to Re: PUT THEM THE F.E.C.K DOWN:

In Response to Re: PUT THEM THE F.E.C.K DOWN : yes and no tk yes and no   i make bets to get them off the hand and stop them hitting 

 So a message to all you who dont think before you call with your rubbish

PUT THEM THE F.E.C.K DOWN 

Posted by Dazler

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush! : ............. In Response to  Re: PUT THEM THE F.E.C.K DOWN :
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

LOL DOHHH you are tryin your hardest to make an argument or a point against me but it aint workin m8, if you dont agree with that either that must mean you like to get a callers all the way too the river no matter what you have and never bet to get a player of a draw or hit over cards and you never want them to lay a hand down before the river EVER. Am i correct in asuming this? and i said him not ever!

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush! : LOL DOHHH you are tryin your hardest to make an argument or a point against me but it aint workin m8, if you dont agree with that either that must mean you like to get a callers all the way too the river no matter what you have and never bet to get a player of a draw or hit over cards and you never want them to lay a hand down before the river EVER. Am i correct in asuming this? and i said him not ever!
Posted by Dazler

It's not an argument, just a strategy discussion/debate. 

I'm not even debating anything, only quoting your own posts as you keep contradicting yourself.

And you are correct to assume that I don't like people folding when I have a better hand than them, yes.

-----------------------------------

But giving bad advice to losing players isn't helpful. especially if they decide to listen.

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush! : It's not an argument, just a strategy discussion/debate.  I'm not even debating anything, only quoting your own posts as you keep contradicting yourself. And you are correct to assume that I don't like people folding when I have a better hand than them, yes. ----------------------------------- But giving bad advice to losing players isn't helpful. especially if they decide to listen.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

you keep stating that its bad advice yet you more or less agreed with it, make your mind up, are you telling him it was a good shove and he should do this every time on a board like this or he should put in a bet and not risk his whole stack and torny life which was my advice? so im def not contradicting myself but you seem too be and by using my other post it has nothiing to do with this thread. If your gonna make a point or statement on how he should play it better do it, dont just jump on my statements and say it wrong without explaining why its wrong.

DOHHHHHHH

 "when you know you have bad players who are more likely to play like this. Keep the betting low if they are likely to keep calling and punish them on the river when they miss."

Alright I think this advice is bad because you aren't protecting or getting full value for your hand.

 i make bets to get them off the hand and stop them hitting 

 So a message to all you who dont think before you call with your rubbish

PUT THEM THE F.E.C.K DOWN 

And I think this advice/thought process is bad because you aren't getting value for your hand.

As I said earlier, get 1 good player to agree with any of the above quotes........ You wont be able to.

Not having a dig man, it's just plain wrong. It's not even debateable.

Dazler

now your just being a smart a ss dohhhh 

the title put them the F.E.C.K down relates to hands where players should have folded but dont and keep calling when they dont have the right odds or pot odds to call and using that in relation to this post is just stupid and ignorant. and ive questioned you time and time agiain on this thread on what you would do in the scenario of the OP and you havnt come back once and actualy said how it should be played or helped him other than i wont fold a better hand no matter what if your ahead (presuming your ahead) 'THAT REALLY GOOD ADVICE DOHHHH makes it oh so clear to a new player and considering you wouldnt know you got a better hand post flop i would say thats bad advice. your not debating your being an ar s e and chopping up parts of a full thread dosnt show what its in context too im sure i could chop up a few things you have put in posts and make is sound differnt to its actual meaning. Im getting board of this now as all you have done is atacked my views on how the player in the OP could avoid getting knocked out of tornys early on by players on drawing hands. Its my view and im entitled to air that view thats what forums are for and i still stand by what i said and still waiting for the answers to the questions i asked you. 

Q.1 Would you shove the lot on a board like that with pk As or bet lower when blinds are only 30 at the start of a torny?

Q.2 And if you held a set would you shove the lot on a board like that?

you have avoided answering these questions there quite simple and pretty much summs up what im saying and you have glazed over my points and just tried to make them pointless. Ill listen to constructive critism and even agree when ive been proved wrong but thats not what your doing here dohhhh is it.

DOHHHHHHH

There's no point discussing specific hands, this isn't the poker clinic. 

I'm questioning your fundementals, your thought process, and the logic behind your advice in general. 

Dazler

In Response to Re: Doesn't seem to matter what odds you get to call on here....they will call any bet when they have 4 to the flush!:

Th er e's no point discussing sp ecific hands, this isn't th e pok er clinic.  I'm qu estioning your fund em entals, your thought proc ess, and th e logic b ehind your advic e in g en eral . 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

condescending, and up ones own #### come to mind when i think of your thought process after that comment! END OFF

logdon

Boys Kiss and make up.   It's only a Game ---------------------------------------------- of words.?