I GIVE UP

debdobs_67

Nothing else to say really as this hand is about right in whats been happening to me on this site for at least 2 weeks now , i know variance can be harsh but WHY do players call any raise with hands like this ??

Yes i DO want these calls BUT NOT when tney keep hitten em ffs

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
callumtres	Small blind		1500.00	1500.00	141936.94
GEORGE21	Big blind		3000.00	4500.00	105477.39
	Your hole cards	A Q
debdobs_67	Raise		6000.00	10500.00	63820.57
Th35hark84	Fold
callumtres	Call		4500.00	15000.00	137436.94
GEORGE21	Call		3000.00	18000.00	102477.39
Flop
		2 Q 4
callumtres	Check
GEORGE21	Check
debdobs_67	Bet		18000.00	36000.00	45820.57
callumtres	Fold
GEORGE21	All-in		102477.39	138477.39	0.00
debdobs_67	All-in		45820.57	184297.96	0.00
GEORGE21	Unmatched bet		38656.82	145641.14	38656.82
GEORGE21	Show	4 Q
debdobs_67	Show	A Q
Turn
		7
River
		5
GEORGE21	Win	Two Pairs, Queens and 4s	145641.14		184297.96

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yb

smaller on't flop

unknown_username

Well . . . you've let the flop go down and allowed the advantage of your pretty strong starting hand to be diluted away. Always a risk here that someone has hit two pairs - also in this case a possible draw to a straight and four to a flush (very common in my experience) which then carries odds of hitting of just around 5-2. Your flush draw went out of the window.

I don't comment on others' playing decisions, as I'm not a great player myself, but I think a questionable call to a shove on your part, especially if you consider the risk/return bit - you're risking all your chips on what you thought was top pair with two to come, but your oppos not going to go out if his two pairs are beaten with the appearance of two (or one in this case - ace) naff card(s).

Don't give up, but learn from the experience.

Good cards.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

Well . . . you've let the flop go down and allowed the advantage of your pretty strong starting hand to be diluted away. Always a risk here that someone has hit two pairs - also in this case a possible draw to a straight and four to a flush (very common in my experience) which then carries odds of hitting of just around 5-2. Your flush draw went out of the window. I don't comment on others' playing decisions, as I'm not a great player myself, but I think a questionable call to a shove on your part, especially if you consider the risk/return bit - you're risking all your chips on what you thought was top pair with two to come, but your oppos not going to go out if his two pairs are beaten with the appearance of two (or one in this case - ace) naff card(s). Don't give up, but learn from the experience. Good cards.
Posted by Goethe

Thats all well and good but these players still shove in this spot with QK QJ even , so i dont really think my call is questionable tbh

Bobsicool3

Not much u can do here im afraid.

Questionable call by george pre flop, maybe if u raise more pre he wud fold. but after that there's no way u can fold to shove with tptk. if he has a set then its just ul..if he on a draw then ur still ahead.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

Well . . . you've let the flop go down and allowed the advantage of your pretty strong starting hand to be diluted away. Always a risk here that someone has hit two pairs - also in this case a possible draw to a straight and four to a flush (very common in my experience) which then carries odds of hitting of just around 5-2. Your flush draw went out of the window. I don't comment on others' playing decisions, as I'm not a great player myself, but I think a questionable call to a shove on your part, especially if you consider the risk/return bit - you're risking all your chips on what you thought was top pair with two to come, but your oppos not going to go out if his two pairs are beaten with the appearance of two (or one in this case - ace) naff card(s). Don't give up, but learn from the experience. Good cards.
Posted by Goethe

It is top pair.....

grantorino

Debs, one consequence of the minraise is that it gives loose villains great odds to call esp with a caller in front. Obv he shouldnt call with Q4o but fish will convince themselves that getting those odds they can call any two. (Im not saying you shouldnt minraise, just the smaller you raise usually the wider their calling range)

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

Debs, one consequence of the minraise is that it gives loose villains great odds to call esp with a caller in front. Obv he shouldnt call with Q4o but fish will convince themselves that getting those odds they can call any two. (Im not saying you shouldnt minraise, just the smaller you raise usually the wider their calling range)
Posted by grantorino

+1.....if you min raise there i am putting you on a big hand,aa/kk/ak etc...
so calling 1bb to get lucky isnt so bad imo....

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : + 1.....if you min raise there i am putting you on a big hand,aa/kk/ak etc... so calling 1bb to get lucky isnt so bad imo....
Posted by DAVEYZZ

I know ure correct here as it was just a frustrated rant in the heat of the moment Also i 3x raise in this spot 19/20 times , just fml when i dont eh ?? xxx

bigal36903

good to get it off your chest debs..  that wot everyone is here for..  the rant...  not to critisze like many do...  you just want to shout and scream sometimes and ppl should know that themselves.. 

better to type ur frustations than to shout at ppl

Bobsicool3

Q4 is the nuts.

NUFF SED

Bobsicool3

Unless its suited then its s###

cleaverjim

bet u dont give up.You will bounce back im sure..

unknown_username

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : It is top pair.....
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

So you'd always shove with top pair regardless (of all other considerations)? Or is that satire at it's sharpest?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : So you'd always shove with top pair regardless (of all other considerations)? Or is that satire at it's sharpest?
Posted by Goethe

I didnt 'shove' with top pair , i bet the pot and then got 'shoved' on , which i auto call on that board with TPTK

unknown_username

That was a question for Mr DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH . . . . .

In hinddight, I think he was querying what I'd written . . . I thought I'd put in "thought you had best hand with top pair", although what I did write was "thought you had top pair" (which of course you actually did at that point).

Despite my earlier posting I did the same myself the other night - was short stacked and dealt pocket Jacks. Let the flop go down - 2,3,4. As the caller had called a hefty raise I thought he might have an ace, therefore he would be chasing a 5 high straight (odds of about 5-1 if I went all in). I did, and he flipped over A,5o. So it was goodnight from me. . . Should have shoved pre-flop, although at the level I play a lot of players will call with an ace and anything.

For note, The odds of flopping a 5 high straight are 304.81-1, so I think I can be forgiven for discounting that possibility.

windamon

In Response to I GIVE UP:

Nothing else to say really as this hand is about right in whats been happening to me on this site for at least 2 weeks now , i know variance can be harsh but WHY do players call any raise with hands like this ?? Yes i DO want these calls BUT NOT when tney keep hitten em ffs Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance callumtres Small blind   1500.00 1500.00 141936.94 GEORGE21 Big blind   3000.00 4500.00 105477.39   Your hole cards A Q       debdobs_67 Raise   6000.00 10500.00 63820.57 Th35hark84 Fold         callumtres Call   4500.00 15000.00 137436.94 GEORGE21 Call   3000.00 18000.00 102477.39 Flop     2 Q 4       callumtres Check         GEORGE21 Check         debdobs_67 Bet   18000.00 36000.00 45820.57 callumtres Fold         GEORGE21 All-in   102477.39 138477.39 0.00 debdobs_67 All-in   45820.57 184297.96 0.00 GEORGE21 Unmatched bet   38656.82 145641.14 38656.82 GEORGE21 Show 4 Q       debdobs_67 Show A Q       Turn     7       River     5       GEORGE21 Win Two Pairs, Queens and 4s 145641.14   184297.96 Prev Close window Next
Posted by debdobs_67

RE. post 3009 dated 22/11/02 cash curse.

Poker_Fail

Debs, look at my thread titled "This ones for you Bigal"... I think that one beats yours :P

cleaverjim

its poker!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A9 V AA?

grantorino

irony is lost

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

its poker!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A9 V AA?
Posted by cleaverjim

Thats not fair , A9 is da nutz

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

For note, The odds of flopping a 5 high straight are 304.81-1, so I think I can be forgiven for discounting that possibility.
Posted by Goethe

The odds are a lot lower backwards, in this scenario you know that the board is 2 3 4 therefore it is far more likely than 304.81-1, however you still can't put him on A5 so unlucky.

Eg the chance of flopping a flush with any 2 suited cards is 118.8-1, however once you have seen that the board has 3 of the same suit, the chance the oppo has flopped the flush is actually about 1 in 24.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : The odds are a lot lower backwards, in this scenario you know that the board is 2 3 4 therefore it is far more likely than 304.81-1, however you still can't put him on A5 so unlucky. Eg the chance of flopping a flush with any 2 suited cards is 118.8-1, however once you have seen that the board has 3 of the same suit, the chance the oppo has flopped the flush is actually about 1 in 24.
Posted by Poker_Fail

The figures came from my boys book of knowledge. The odds of hitting an end of range straight from the flop is 304.81-1. By end of range straight I mean A-5 or 10-A, where only one each of three cards can make it. The odds for hitting straights that can be made mid range, ie you're holding 5,6 and so any 2,3,4; 3,4,7; 4,7,8; 7,8,9, is 75.56-1 (so the book says - I haven't done the sums myself).

Also, although mathematically the same, the chance of running into an ace high straight, compared to a five high straight are higher - simply because players are more likely to hold onto two cards that would make an ace high straight than a five high straight. How many players will call through on 2,4o (possibly with the exception of the blinds)? This is where the maths get blurred in the game and why the variance aspects of it are really unquantifiable - due to individual's playing style will have an effect on results.

A reason why, although the odds and maths are not the be all and end all of the game, a little time invested in memorising some numbers can go a long way. Over a period of time, people will develop a gut feeling for the likelihood of an event happening (ie being rivered by a card that turns an underpair into a set), but if it isn't quantified then it can be easy to call "rigged game".

By example, I play DYMs and on an average of forty hands a game (of which I play around 15), then for every 6 or 7 games I play I expect to be on the end of a one in a hundred odds event occuring. Not particularly scientific, but it does put things in perspective. Those who play thousands of hands, and then scream "rigged" when their aces are cracked by someone calling with pocket threes (as an example) need to put some study time in - with the maths.

Good cards.

Batkin88

raise slightly more pre 7500 - 9000 bet flop less and still money goes in!! It is just one of them annoying things however run better gl 

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : The figures came from my boys book of knowledge. The odds of hitting an end of range straight from the flop is 304.81-1. By end of range straight I mean A-5 or 10-A, where only one each of three cards can make it. The odds for hitting straights that can be made mid range, ie you're holding 5,6 and so any 2,3,4; 3,4,7; 4,7,8; 7,8,9, is 75.56-1
Posted by Goethe

I still meant an A-5 straight, once you know that the board is 2 3 4, then the chance of him having flopped the straight is increased as the chance of being dealt A5 for your hole cards is more likely than the chance of a 2 3 4 flop.

Eg, If you hold A5, the chance of the flop being 2 3 4 is 1 in 306.25

If the board is 2 3 4, the chance of him having A5 is 1 in 73.5

So once you know the flop the odds decrease.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : I still meant an A-5 straight, once you know that the board is 2 3 4, then the chance of him having flopped the straight is increased as the chance of being dealt A5 for your hole cards is more likely than the chance of a 2 3 4 flop. Eg, If you hold A5, the chance of the flop being 2 3 4 is 1 in 306.25 If the board is 2 3 4, the chance of him having A5 is 1 in 73.5 So once you know the flop the odds decrease.
Posted by Poker_Fail

Very confused . . . the chances of anyone holding any two cards are 220-1. There are 1,326 possible hole card combinations, and with six ways to make a hand that equates to 6/1,326, or 1/221? This doesn't change after an event has occured. So in the case above with 2,3,4, on the board, I know that the chances of him holding A,5 are still 220-1. The coincidence of this, together with flopping the three cards needed to make the straight tally to the 305-1(ish).

Think we must have studied maths at different schools.

grantorino

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : Very confused . . . the chances of anyone holding any two cards are 220-1. There are 1,326 possible hole card combinations, and with six ways to make a hand that equates to 6/1,326, or 1/221? This doesn't change after an event has occured. So in the case above with 2,3,4, on the board, I know that the chances of him holding A,5 are still 220-1. The coincidence of this, together with flopping the three cards needed to make the straight tally to the 305-1(ish). Think we must have studied maths at different schools.
Posted by Goethe

You are roughly correct on the odds of flopping 2,3,4 when someone has A5. Thats not what you need to know though. You need to know the probability he has A5 given cards we have already seen

1 There are 6 combos of each paired hand, but 16 of unpaired hands like A5. So pre the odds of you being dealt A5 are 4C1*4C1/52C2. Once you see you have JJ the odds he has A5 are 16/50C2

2The odds change a little postflop. You know 5 cards already (2,3,4,J,J) He can have A5 (4C1*4C1)/(47C2)

Also there are a good few more hands he can have that beat you or have good equity against your range. Use reads, betting etc along with the maths

unknown_username

Sorry, meant to type 16 not 6 for two odd cards, which would mean the odds of A-5 being around 82-1? Knowing five cards will reduce the odds a margin, but it won't be so significant that it would affect your decision making - IMHO. Does help if you get the number right at the beginning, doesn't it?

In the case described, I was reasonably sure of the ace, and knowing the odds of the oppo being dealt A-5, and therefore hitting a five high straight on the flop, I thought I'd be in clover. Fate dictated otherwise. :-(

Apologies for confusing anyone reading this. Got my come-uppance though - have just got bombed out of three on the trot.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : Very confused . . . the chances of anyone holding any two cards are 220-1. There are 1,326 possible hole card combinations, and with six ways to make a hand that equates to 6/1,326, or 1/221? This doesn't change after an event has occured. So in the case above with 2,3,4, on the board, I know that the chances of him holding A,5 are still 220-1. The coincidence of this, together with flopping the three cards needed to make the straight tally to the 305-1(ish). Think we must have studied maths at different schools.
Posted by Goethe

That is the odds of holding any specific pocket pair actually.

cleaverjim

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP:

In Response to Re: I GIVE UP : That is the odds of holding any specific pocket pair actually.
Posted by Poker_Fail

no its not,

cleaverjim

IM SURE ITS 18/1 FOR ANY POCKET PAIR.