settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV

The_Don90

Ok had a debate with Dohhhh (who may i add has never played live)

I rekon straddling in cash is +EV for a number of factors, however he rekons its -EV


So to the polls.

Also if you like id like your answers and why if you dont mind.

pod1

i need another box. "dont know"

DOHHHHHHH

I cannot imagine how voluntarily posting a third blind without looking at your cards could ever be more +ev than playing normally.

There are some v specific situations where I'd imagine it would be a good idea, but in general if you'll surely lose money doing it ?????

If I'm wrong about this I will cry and never play poker again.

Also dunno how never having played live has anything to do with anything? 

We should have had a bet on this......tenner ????

YOUNG_GUN

-ev Stupido , it can be profitable but it makes the stakes your playing higher so its going to be worse in the long run

if your going to play in a straddled game make sure A) your well rolled b) you have a big edge

The_Don90

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

-ev Stupido , it can be profitable but it makes the stakes your playing higher so its going to be worse in the long run if your going to play in a straddled game make sure A) your well rolled b) you have a big edge
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

so it allows us to build the pot twice as quick.

DOHHHHHHH

^^ so does looking at ur cards normally and opening alot of pots utg!

even if you open 80% of ur range utg, it's still better than being forced to open 100% of it?

Dudeskin8

If you want the stakes to be higher why not just play a bigger game full stop ?

bandini

If everyone's doing it it's surely neutral EV unless you have an edge over the table?

If it's just you then you're playing more and higher pots out of position so surely -EV?

TommyD

The act of you straddling is -ev.

Convincing a whole table of players you have an edge over to straddle is +ev.

rancid

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

The act of you straddling is -ev. Convincing a whole table of players you have an edge over to straddle is +ev.
Posted by TommyD

+1

Convincing a table of worse players to straddle and raise the stakes in the game, is the best move you can make.

DTWBANDIT

   hey don why would you want to get involved with straddling in the first place m8 !!!

GREGHOGG

gotta be -ev, its a third blind, and playing from the blinds is nearly always -ev

scotty77

So minus EV but if the game is super super deep like its 1-1 and most of the people are 300bb deep and you can get the whole table to do it then it probably becomes +ev, assuming you have an edge on the game.

So funny when you see people sat with 30bb suddenly putting it on tho.  

But yeah if your not doing it and everyone is then it is good for the game.

I sometimes double/triple straddle for the lolz tho in the hope that I will find the aces in there one day.

JockBMW

I was playing live cash on Thursday when a young man asked me why it was I never straddle.  My Relpy.... "Because I'm not an Idiot" seemed to confuse him more than a bit.

I think you know which way I'm voting Don ;o)

Tikay10

Think everyone is missing one key point - the ability of the straddler.

Essentially, it's up's the gamble quotient, which is fine if that's your thing.

But if you (not you personally, I don't mean....) are no good at poker, you'll be no good at straddling, essentially, & you'll just lose your money more efficiently - that is to say, lose it quicker.

A bad player straddling will just become badder.

Forget things like straddling Don, it's like checking in the dark, or floating, peeps think it's cool because it is different, & some of the big boys do it, so they try to mimic it.

Keep it simple, forget the fancy dan stuff, & just grind out a small profit repeatedly. Now THAT is cool.

GaryQQQ

Depends.

Neither if all players are of equal skill.

+ev if you're the best player at the table.

-ev if you're the worst player at the table.

DOHHHHHHH

Just to clear up the discussion was about voluntarily straddling when it's your turn to play UTG.

Not to try and get the whole table straddling, which is a totally different debate.

Bit daft really as how can voluntarily playing the most important part of the hand without looking at your cards ever be a better idea than playing it having looked at your cards???!!!

Tikay10

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

Depends. Neither if all players are of equal skill. +ev if you're the best player at the table. -ev if you're the worst player at the table.
Posted by GaryQQQ

...and if you think you are, then you are almost cerrtainly not.....!

I also think if all the players are of equal skill, it's -ev. It's not like you see your cards before straddling.

A good player, with a good hand, knowing there is a straddler who must almost certainly Raise to optimise the straddle, will pick up a nice pot pre after limping in & setting the trap for the hapless straddler. 

I NEVER straddle, but I love playing on Tables where there is a straddle permitted, it is ALWAYS +ev for me.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

Just to clear up the discussion was about voluntarily straddling when it's your turn to play UTG. Not to try and get the whole table straddling, which is a totally different debate. Bit daft really as how can voluntarily playing the most important part of the hand without looking at your cards ever be a better idea than playing it having looked at your cards???!!!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

EvilPingu

Why straddle? Why not just move up a level. Voted -ev for the reasons that DOHHHHHH posted in Post #3.

scotty77

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

Why straddle? Why not just move up a level. Voted -ev for the reasons that DOHHHHHH posted in Post #3.
Posted by EvilPingu

cos live poker ain't like online.  its either 1/1 or 1/2 usually in most places.  sometimes you'll find a .50/1.

Smitalos

Okay, some of these posts are pretty comical to say the least, everything from overall game theory to Tikay's grammar :P ("badder" [i think you mean 'Worse', Tikay ])

I think TommyD put it in the most concise way as short as poss, but i'll chip in with a bit of wordage

Anywho, Straddling and whether it's + or - EV is based on NUMEROUS factors. It's even possible for a losing player to play BETTER when the straddle is on than when it isn't!
On the whole though, as a general theory behind straddling, it's definitely NOT something you want to do be doing if you're the only one doing it. You'd need to have suge a massive edge on your table for it to... 1) Still be profitable, 2) Be more profitable than before!

- Reasons -
1) When straddling, you're committing dead money to the hand. You're putting in 2bb without even seeing your cards! Putting in money blind can never be a good thing surely? Think about it this way. By putting the straddle on, you're forced to (effectively) be min-raising 72o, 94o, T3o UTG. If you had a choice to either open those hands, or not, you'd choose to muck them wouldn't you? (because it's on the whole, not +EV to open those hands 99% of the time :P). So you're making a -EV decision by being forced to play your garbage, when you'd still be able to play your good hands in the same way anyway!
2) You're being dealt the 3rd worst position at the table, and will be out of position almost always post-flop on your opponents, which will make it borderline impossible to be consistantly +EV.
3) You're making stacks twice as shallow and decreasing your overall edge (again, exceptions can arise, such as people having no clue what ranges to 3b shove, open shove etc), but it's widely considered the deeper the better for +EV players.

It really is a 'feel' thing when wanting to put the straddle on. If you have multiple nits at the table who are playing well above their roll, get the straddle on and pick up all that dead money pre! 2x stakes will make them uncomfortable and you'll just print money by stealing blinds. If however you've got a bunch of Laggro-spewtards, do you really want to risk them nitting it up by 2x'ing the blinds? Maybe some people would play MORE LAGGRO! As said, it's a 'feel' thing for the most part, and just that standard poker skill of adjusting to your situation and acting accordingly.

Sorry for the ramble, and gl at the tables everyone.
Cheers,
Carlos Smitalos
P.S. Straddling FTW tho. GAMBOL-GAMBOL!!

Tikay10

Okay, some of these posts are pretty comical to say the least, everything from overall game theory to Tikay's grammar :P ("badder" [i think you mean 'Worse', Tikay ])

Lol, it was deliberate, to be fair - I try & put a little "hook" into every Post, they gat a bit boring, & lame, otherwise.

How about "worser"?

PS - It's "GAMBLE" not "GAMBOL". Touche?

MkeItRain

straddling is obv -ev (the definition of Expected Value = long term profitability of a play) so if we're asking If i straddle at every oppotunity for the next 1000 times will i show a profit, then theb answer is without question, NO, you'll lose money - for reasons stated above by Carlos.

Obviously as well if the whole table does it its EV0 regardless of who's the best/worst player, some people might feel they have an edge with higher stake/shallower stacks, but the EV of the straddle isn't affected by this.

This however, doesn't mean straddling doesn't provide some short term benefits, or isn't an optimal play in certain situations. I elect to straddle near on 100% in these situations,

1) there is a "fish" at the table who is straddling everytime he gets the oppurtunity, I feel like if he see's i'm straddling as well as him he gives you credit for a bit more "heart" and gives you more action than someone who is not. Appearing like a NIT is generally bad for business in live cash games, as you get such few hands when you get big hands you want ACTION

2) if it's short handed and there are tight players on the BTN, if say its 5handed and the BTN is very tight, Im pretty inclined to straddle here as often it's going to buy you position in the hand.

3) If there is someone tilting/going mental at the table, always nice to straddle in these spots speashly if your OOP to him, means you get a higer% chance of getting to flops with him.

4) If you are IP on weak players with deepstacks, nice to straddle here because it means you'll get to flops more often with them in this spot, you get ISO'd a little less often on average when you straddle as well.

5) if i'm a bit bored and fancy gambling - -EV yes, but nothing wrong with it

In a lot of games "Missisippi Straddles" are allowed where you can straddle from anywhere on the table (first option always to the BTN) this starts the action preflop to the left of the last straddle, games with unlimited missisippi straddles can get v big v quick cos you can have 5/6 straddles on sometimes regardless of where the BTN is, this type of straddle give way way more oppurtunities to post +EV straddles, speshly frmo the BTN, rarely is it not +EV to straddle on your btn.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

straddling is obv -ev (the definition of Expected Value = long term profitability of a play) so if we're asking If i straddle at every oppotunity for the next 1000 times will i show a profit, then theb answer is without question, NO, you'll lose money - for reasons stated above by Carlos. Obviously as well if the whole table does it its EV0 regardless of who's the best/worst player, some people might feel they have an edge with higher stake/shallower stacks, but the EV of the straddle isn't affected by this. This however, doesn't mean straddling doesn't provide some short term benefits, or isn't an optimal play in certain situations. I elect to straddle near on 100% in these situations, 1) there is a "fish" at the table who is straddling everytime he gets the oppurtunity, I feel like if he see's i'm straddling as well as him he gives you credit for a bit more "heart" and gives you more action than someone who is not. Appearing like a NIT is generally bad for business in live cash games, as you get such few hands when you get big hands you want ACTION 2) if it's short handed and there are tight players on the BTN, if say its 5handed and the BTN is very tight, Im pretty inclined to straddle here as often it's going to buy you position in the hand. 3) If there is someone tilting/going mental at the table, always nice to straddle in these spots speashly if your OOP to him, means you get a higer% chance of getting to flops with him. 4) If you are IP on weak players with deepstacks, nice to straddle here because it means you'll get to flops more often with them in this spot, you get ISO'd a little less often on average when you straddle as well. 5) if i'm a bit bored and fancy gambling - -EV yes, but nothing wrong with it In a lot of games "Missisippi Straddles" are allowed where you can straddle from anywhere on the table (first option always to the BTN) this starts the action preflop to the left of the last straddle, games with unlimited missisippi straddles can get v big v quick cos you can have 5/6 straddles on sometimes regardless of where the BTN is, this type of straddle give way way more oppurtunities to post +EV straddles, speshly frmo the BTN, rarely is it not +EV to straddle on your btn.
Posted by MkeItRain

Fine Post - listen up guys, this guy can play - he is the author of far & away the BEST Poker Blog on the net right now. Hard to believe he is only 12. He blogged about winning - and losing - $50k Cash Pots a week ago.

Seriously, young man......really appreciate you popping across here with occasional Posts.

How is Vegas? I'll be there on Monday, happy days, & I'm SO gonna give you a mashing at Heads Up Omaha Cash, OK? That assumes you have not got any homework to do, obv.

x

delaney09

enjoying everyone of mkeitrains posts so far and his blog is a brilliant read

beaneh

Make it rain on dem hoeeeeesssssss

delaney09

^^^^ looool was just listening to that on itunes

The_Don90

i think ive actually learnt something. ty guys. Scotty/tommy/tikay very good responces. As well as others on page 2. Ive literally just woken up so will have a proper read through again when i can absorb.

The game i usually straddle in is a local .50p/.50p game usually get a lot of fish and about an hour in your looking at most players being deep. Also im not the only straddler.

Ty for responces.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: settle a debate. Staddling +EV or -EV:

i think ive actually learnt something. ty guys. Scotty/tommy/tikay very good responces. As well as others on page 2. Ive literally just woken up so will have a proper read through again when i can absorb. The game i usually straddle in is a local .50p/.50p game usually get a lot of fish and about an hour in your looking at most players being deep. Also im not the only straddler. Ty for responces.
Posted by The_Don90

YOU may think they are fish, Don, but beware lack of respect for your opponents.

Players less experienced, or able, are not at much disadvantage in the short term, you know.

Just about every living poker player calls their opponents "fish". Logic suggests that can't be quite right...... 

scotty77

Is Orford the exception to that rule Tikay?!

FWIW in that kinda game I'd be more inclinded to straddle to keep everyone happy.  Only if deep tho and if they have about 120-150 min on the table.

TBH tho in live poker you generally don't need to do much to build pots.  Flop a pair and overbet and scoop.