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When is it ok to say "Really?"?
This is more a converstain/discussion topic than anything. Also part vent @)
But at what point does it become okay to feel that our faith is being a tad streched?
I have my own thoughts on online poker. But I could show you 3 months of negative variance that would make you lose your last three meals. Where that 3 outer just keeps getting there from behind on the river in every critical pot. (In fact I'm taking it up with a site to attempt to leverage some freebies in the week)
But if we do lose faith in a product over time, surely we need a soundboard to express those views. Mainly to reassure a customer base, but also for a business model to address those issues.
We need to lose the stigma that is attached to people who stick there heads out from their laptops and say "Really?"
Any product needs to maintain customer faith and satisfaction. Its never been clear to me why online poker remains purposefully ambiguous.
So, at what point does a person have the right to say that they believe their experience amounts to more than perpetual negative variance? And at the point that they do so, should a company not be invested in renewing/restoring their faith.
In the past I have contacted major sites in regard to this (as I know many of you have). The response has always been staggeringly awful. (That being said SKy's customer service is the best I've seen).
Please read between the lines on this. Its not an "online poker is rigged thread". Its a "why cant online poker sites be more transparent and keep their customer base who are suffering extensive downswings happy"
But at what point does it become okay to feel that our faith is being a tad streched?
I have my own thoughts on online poker. But I could show you 3 months of negative variance that would make you lose your last three meals. Where that 3 outer just keeps getting there from behind on the river in every critical pot. (In fact I'm taking it up with a site to attempt to leverage some freebies in the week)
But if we do lose faith in a product over time, surely we need a soundboard to express those views. Mainly to reassure a customer base, but also for a business model to address those issues.
We need to lose the stigma that is attached to people who stick there heads out from their laptops and say "Really?"
Any product needs to maintain customer faith and satisfaction. Its never been clear to me why online poker remains purposefully ambiguous.
So, at what point does a person have the right to say that they believe their experience amounts to more than perpetual negative variance? And at the point that they do so, should a company not be invested in renewing/restoring their faith.
In the past I have contacted major sites in regard to this (as I know many of you have). The response has always been staggeringly awful. (That being said SKy's customer service is the best I've seen).
Please read between the lines on this. Its not an "online poker is rigged thread". Its a "why cant online poker sites be more transparent and keep their customer base who are suffering extensive downswings happy"
Comments
Many people are attacked in here for shouting "RIGGED"
For those that are perfectly happy to mock those types of people: What would be sufficent criteria for someone to express genuine concern? Or as above, by buying into something, do we believe we wave that right? The best way to express our weakening faith, being to simply take our business elsewhere or to simply stop playing?
It's a bit like asking a Mini main dealer why the servo units on mini models keep failing at a far higher rate than the Mean Time Before Failure testing stats suggests they should. Try getting anyone to admit that it's a design fault. Try proving it is. In the meantime, a lot of people have had to shell out for replacement units where the manufacturer's warranty has run out. I don't own a mini (but it's a great analogy).
I think the short answer is that nobody on the receiving end of such enquiries is able to answer them. Simple as that.
Really dont think the "if negative dont play" line applies bud
6 of 7 last exits for MTT's
AJ vs Q10 A38KJ board aiot
KsQs vs 8s9s 10sJs2K7 aiot
AQvsJJvsKQ AK23K with nut blocker with 3 spades out on turn
KK vs QQ KA10J4 Aipf
A10 vs JQ 1045AK
Q10 vs 93 QQ485. Guy doesnt believe me when I raise him on flop so 3bet jams, backing into flush.
Nothing unusual says man from 888. This is today online. Patronising s.o.b.
I'm just going to apologise in advance. I'm on the verge of a massive wobbling meltdown.
You and I have had a fair bit of banter over last two years. You ever seen me this way???. Truth is I've lost nearly half my offline BR and am utterly lost at the table. Everything is getting there vs my hands just now. Even thinking of looking for a FT post as an alternative.
I dont know how to play poker anymore. End of.
I've enjoyed sky when I play DOh. I just find the software too glitchy. When it gets as smooth as major sites I imagine this is where I'll mostly play. If and when I get my head straight.
When players are on a downswing or having this 'negative varience' i head ppl on about i believe they start to play diffrently.
Maybe u'll go up higher stakes in an attempt to reclaim ur money back. or perhaps u'll start stacking off lighter to win some money.
Online poker isn't fixed, nor is it as pure as playing at home with a pack of cards, people need to understand that and either continue to play or give up.
An online poker company does have obligations to meet, like keeping customers connections alive ;-) (hint hint sky) and keeping players money secure (FULL GUILT). That is what keeping faith is about, not the cards.
If i didnt have faith in my local Tesco, i'd simply go elsewhere. not continue to shop there and continuously moan
that is all
Also Im pretty sure online companies have an obligation to provide a game as described, which would seem to me they need to provide a random shuffle
1. Read beanehs posts on variance again. They are right on the money. People generally have a vague understanding of variance. What they never really grasp (myself included) is how easy it is to suffer severe negative variance.
2. When you ring customer service what do you expect them to do? Close down the site? Give you the rng program details? Reimburse you cos u are running bad? If so are you going to give some money back when you run good. What do you think is so ambiguous about online poker, what is not transparent about the sites? Im not saying they are whiter than white, but what is your exact complaint? Aside from that, ringing customer service to complain about running bad seems like a recipe to put yourself on monster tilt
3. I fully accept your right to question the rng. As to when you start to say its not negative variance and is something else, I couldnt really tell you. But I would think you should have a lot of hands and meticulous records.
4. You need to be sure you are honest about how bad you are running. This is a problem for most people, including me. When we get it in with AT and suck out on KK or set v overset we think oh " I played my hand right I deserved that bit of luck". When we win 4 flips in a row we think thats normal I was flipping, even though it happens roughly only 6% of time. Contrast that to our reaction when our AQ is beaten by K2, even though we are not that big a favourite. Even the examples you gave are seriously biased. They are all exit hands -which means you lost. You dont show the other hand . You dont give any indication of how lucky/unlucky you were over course of other hands. Im not saying you are not running bad, you almost certainly are. Just make sure you are being honest with yourself
5. Running bad nearly always leads to playing bad. Again analyse your sessions and look for leaks, especially as you seem unhappy with your game
6. DONT CHASE YOUR LOSSES. Also have an honest appraisal of whether you are good enough to beat games you are playing. I think its pretty certain you can beat your live games, not sure what you are playing online. Even if you are certain you can beat them, I would consider moving down till your confidence returns. Also I think playing very ABC poker is a good idea when running bad, it gives you less difficult decisions, we often get these decision wrong when we lack confidence or are tilted
Hope some of this helps, and hope you start to run good
GL
I said I was on a ridic downswing Live as well as online.
I was mainly just putting my thoughts down after reading this Brian guys funny thread. That combined with the natural disdain people have for people who shout online is rigged.
It was meant as a hypothetical scenario, a drawing of the line if you will. As to what criteria the community would agree would be a persons threshold and at what point a person on a Natural/Normal downswing would be justified in having their faith tested. Also a gentle poke that the industry could do more to restore faith.
No attack from this corner. Already said the downswing is affecting my game and mindset. Have said numerous times my game is off.
Again, I think the OP was worded very diplomatically. Yet people seem to interpret any conversation on this subject matter as an attack. Which it very much wasnt.
Its very hard for Tom Diiick and Harry to shout Rigged when a site can robustly show unchallengable evidence.
"Obligation" to provide a fair game. Obligation to whom? The punters? Licensing Authorities (for what they are - AGC)? The shareholders/interest holders of the operating sites? The parties that operate online poker sites aren't obliged to provide anything, although there is of course the issue of competitiveness and business longevity to consider.
"Legal requirements". What legal requirements? To the best of my knowledge, taking part in any form of gambling is not supported in law and there is no redress in the civil courts of the UK to settle disputes that might arise from individuals taking up the services offered by operators. Sure, there are legal requirements to observe (licensing ones) if you want to establish a bricks and mortar gaming business in the UK, and conditions to observe as part of holding a licence, but online there is no requirement to submit to any form of licensing regime - issues of jurisdiction definitely foggy the waters (just who would you refer the matter to if an online poker site said they weren't going to pay their fees to the AGC anymore and you weren't happy about it?).
AMBYR's comments above re the industry could do more to foster confidence in the integrity of the games offered are fair ones, but to do so would inevitably incur additional costs. Why incur these when there's no shortage of people willing to make deposits and play (for whatever reasons they do). I can't see anything changing really, and the short answer is that if people aren't confident in the integrity of the games offered, then they should just stop playing.
I learned a long time ago one of the cornerstones of being in business - if you don't trust somebody, or have confidence in their ability to meet their side of a deal, then don't do business with them. Simple as that.
An easy answer to solve the issue of players' reservations would be to publish details of the hand count each day - have a page that would show the total number of hands dealt over the last, say, month, the number of times certain hands or combinations of hands/cards would be expected to show and the number that actually did show. All this could be independently audited. From this hard data, players could make their own minds up about the integrity of the games. Simples. But it'd all cost money, and eat into the margins of the operators - and as there are no obligations to do it, you're more likely to fly home on a broomstick tonight than see that page created (IMHO).
For the record, as I've stated before I don't think there's anything amiss with the cards dealt being random, although I can't prove that to be the case. The operators could do, if they were willing to spend the money to do so.
I do believe online poker is random, i dont believe its fixed. But there is more components so to speak to run a RNG than a dealer and cards
This is what i am saying..if i didnt trust a online website to look after my 'card details' when purchasing an item i wouldnt buy it off that site. simple as that.
People consistently say they dont trust this poker site cos its fixed etc... but isn't there more worrying things to think about when choosing a poker company to play.
Like is ur poker site likely to do a full tilt.
does the poker site have the customers best interests at heart (at sky poker we get a free tv channel, we get all sorts of promotions, freebies on fb and twitter etc.)
People can shout rigged, fixed etc..all they like, im sure online poker companies go through checks with AGC
the amount of people of say its rigged is tiny compared to those who say its not or have no comment
I was going to say something along the lines that it would do the industry no harm at all to exceed the bare minimum that the law requires. But you do a good job of covering it in terms of neccessity and costing.
We've all read many many posts on discussions intrinsically linked to this topic. It does seem to me that the criteria for lifting ones head out of the sand and asking the question, just doesnt exhist. Peoples responses do very much seem to reinforce that the online game is beyond questioning and reproach. In honesty I would love to have that concrete faith.
But as I asked in the second post in this thread: It does seem that the most feasable way to express our tested faith is to stop playing. No other option seems acceptable, given that even the discussion surrounding the integrity of online play is treated with disdain.
Surely this is wrong?
Pokerstars has a dedicated page to explain the random number generator, but i still suspect people complain about stars.
If we got some Uni students to play poker for a year on here. mark down all the results and work out how 'random' it is, work out over a set number of hands if the odds of winning ak vs 1010 was 50/50. would that stop people claiming online poker is fixed???
I wonder how long Toyota dealers had to suffer disgruntled customers and had to deal with claims arising from brakes failures before there was a general vehicle recall (which incidently started in the States where consumers are far more likely to seek redress for such failings in law)?
Difference is though:
Toyota motor car = tangile mainstream consumer product with a very definite safety requirement within it's design criteria.
Online poker with Sky (or any other site) = non-tangible service that falls outside of the protection of civil law due to it's gambling nature (in the UK) and has no physical safety issues to worry about.
They do have something in common of course - both are provided with the aim of making the providers a profit.
Discuss.
I dont think and impartial objective debate is possible on this subjuect