Small blind, aggressive player....

Sky_Dave

I call.

At 12,000 a round we have an M of 2.5.

The buttons range, based on your description above, is massive. I would expect him to be shoving pretty much any 2 cards there. If we get called by the BB then that's just hard luck.

Sky_Dave

OK, here's another of those 'WWYD?' discussions. (WWYD = What Would You Do)

Situation:

You're playing in an MTT and are on the final table bubble. The big stack on the table (who is on the Button in this example) has been abusing this bubble for the last handful of orbits, nicking blinds and antes to add to his stack. Nothing wrong with that, but it has to come to a stop at some point, right?

You've been on the table for a decent amount of time and consider the big blind to be a solid thinking player who is probably aware that the button is abusing the bubble too. From the hands shown down, the BB has only ever three-bet with solid hands such as A-J/99 and better, so you think he is decent but perhaps a little tight.

Blinds are 3,000/6,000 with a 750 ante. 

Stack sizes:

UTG: 46,200

MP: 75,800

CO: 35,000.

Button - 94,100

You (SB) - 28,500

Big Blind - 79,200

The other table has one player on around 65k and some shorter stacks ranging between 50k and 18.8k. You are the second shortest stack with 11 left in the tourney.

Prize structure:

Let's say for the sake of discussion that the tournament is a £10 buy-in and first pays around £1,300 with a decent structure. Something like:

£1,300, £950, £700, £550, £450, £375, £290, £230, £170, £140 for the rest.

I just made that up, btw. Seems to be reasonable though. First is worth having, you've already cashed for a decent chunk of chance but the real top bananas are at 1st-3rd.

Your image: 

Creative. You've shown down some good hands, a couple of 'interesting ones' but lost a pot about 15 minutes before after flopping top pair, good kicker on a T-x-x flop and your opponent had QQ which held. The table might think you are a little tilted.

Action:

You're playing six-handed, with UTG and two others folding to the Button. He open shoves for 94,100. 

You look down at K-Js. What do you do? 

If you fold, which hands do you need to see in the SB here before you'd consider calling?

Let rip, poker fans...

(P.S - I know the poll says the 'hand below'. What can I say? It was a 50/50 and I lost. Posting variance...)

MereNovice

In Response to Small blind, aggressive player....:

(P.S - I know the poll says the 'hand below'. What can I say? It was a 50/50 and I lost. Posting variance...)
Posted by Sky_Dave

Nice one!

OK. What are the financial implications - ie. the payout structure?
What are the other stacks on the table?

Grimstar30

I call, can you wait any longer for a better hand? That would be my way of thinking. You will probably be about 50/50 v. the button, but you dont have enough blinds left to wait for a better spot.

chrisbhoy

Almost instant call. Though depends on prize structure. But if you are in it to win it then call. If you fold then the blinds will just blind you out and you will have no fold equity following

byrdy89

I would most defo call! its 6 handed and the button open shoves with the big stack he has any2 most of the time! hes adding a chunk to hes a stack if he picks up the blinds and antes so why wouldnt he.well thats what i fink anyway

FlashFlush

FOLD!!!!

KJ most ovr played hand in holdem.. also you are SB so you do not have to post your blind again for a few hands, let the others knock each other out... I would shove with KJ not call, all the button guy needs is a rag ace and he is infront. Just because he has been aggressive doesn't mean he NEVER has a hand, how do you think these LAG players get paid off?

MereNovice

I can see reasons for folding.
1. Blinds have just gone through you.
2, A tight opponent on your left who you may be able to get to pass when you shove (if you get a chance).
It really depends on the stacks of the other 3 players for me.

phil12uk

I fold.

It's the old adage of wanting to put my money in first. Yes KJ is way above average but he could well be beating it with his shove and I havent played for so long to get to this position and then call for my tourney life with KJ.

Folded to me and I shove with generally anything but totally different when calling for tourney life.

Sky_Dave

OK, additional information has been added to the opening post. The payouts are what you would expect late in a big-field MTT - you've already done pretty well, but the real dough is top 3/4 spots. As for the other stacks in the tournament I have added those too.

Kaidus

I call even more now. It's the FT bubble, so we only get £30 more for making it. I'm not passing any hand that is ahead of the Button's range just to make that £30, when if we win and double, we get at least 60k which puts us in the top 3 and is a much better platform to take down the £1300 first prize.

repton3

I'd actually fold and wait for an opportunity to open shove or the other small stack to go out meantime and a ladder up one place.  I was actually in a very similar position to this a few nights ago in the 'your name' deepstack and managed to ladder up from 5th to 3rd by folding a couple of hands like this to shoves, which were then called by better hands behind me and stopped me being crushed.  A lot of the time with these I go with gut feeling though.

Grimstar30

I'm out to win the big prize, lets call and gamble. The BB wont risk his tournament. So it's HU KJs v. ?.... I do agree with Charles KJ is over rated.

IF you fold you have 4 hands at 750 antes so another 3k lost of ur chip stack. 

The only issue here is do you wait until you are the one shoving first. Which Phil alluded to.

Assuming you take this plan, and you shove with any 2 cards, you may well only have around 20k left and (do I have the terms right?) the larger stacks won't have fold equity and with stack of about 75-90k will get 4/1 on their money. So will call you anyway.

Ok that is my sad attempt at poker logic over with lol

MereNovice

Yep, given the pay structure, I've now become all "gung ho" and decided to call.
There seems very little point in trying to ladder.
The BB is almost certainly folding so it's HU against a serial raiser with a decent-ish hand.
I could go either way though - probably depending on how many mates are at the bar.

scotty77

Call.  If you pass then your FE will be so little soon that any shove by you will be meaningless.

KJ is def ahead of his range and you will be unlikely to run into a hand that totally dominates you.

I imagine that you will be a 15pc favourite most of the time.  Even if you are behind to something like AQ then its not massively behind, and even if you could see the hand faceup I still might call then with the blinds/antes in the pot.

If you are not worried about the laddering and playing to win it is such an easy call.

phil12uk

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

Yep, given the pay structure, I've now become all "gung ho" and decided to call. There seems very little point in trying to ladder. The BB is almost certainly folding so it's HU against a serial raiser with a decent-ish hand. I could go either way though - probably depending on how many mates are at the bar.
Posted by MereNovice

I thought there was only Tikay.......and he'd be asleep, so you'd still be better off folding and playing a few more hands

Grimstar30

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

Call.  If you pass then your FE will be so little soon that any shove by you will be meaningless. KJ is def ahead of his range and you will be unlikely to run into a hand that totally dominates you. I imagine that you will be a 15pc favourite most of the time.  Even if you are behind to something like AQ then its not massively behind, and even if you could see the hand faceup I still might call then with the blinds/antes in the pot. If you are not worried about the laddering and playing to win it is such an easy call.
Posted by scotty77

OMG i was right in a term i used

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player.... : I thought there was only Tikay.......and he'd be asleep, so you'd still be better off folding and playing a few more hands
Posted by phil12uk

OK, final answer.
If Tikay is asleep, I call.
If Tikay is awake I fold until I get blinded out in order to avoid listening to train stories.

OMahonyO

Its all very well saying wait for a better spot or get your money in first etc.  At this stage of a tourney, the only time you are guaranteed to get ur money in first is utg. Someone is usually always raising at this stage.

Also, are you going to get a bigger hand than KJs in the next few hands.  Unlikely.  Which makes matters worse as the rest of the table will think you are shoving pretty light when it is folded to you, and you prob will be.

I couldnt fold this.  I think BB would need something HUGE to get involved here so I wouldnt really be worried about him

Sky_Dave

OK, so if the concensus is that KJ is a call, what about KT? QJ? What is the minimum you want to see here?

Interesting stuff, this...

scotty77

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

OK, so if the concensus is that KJ is a call, what about KT? QJ? What is the minimum you want to see here? Interesting stuff, this...
Posted by Sky_Dave

I would say that any hand that is in the top 30/40pc.  Even stuff like J8suited I really think I'd have to go with here.

35suited

Like most have said on here id call this, without a doubt, but to be honest I think id have shoved lnog before getting down that low so id either be out or in a better position

Gareth

scrumdown

i  call   cant  wait  much  longer  for  a  primuium  hand  going  to  get  blinded  out

LadyFingrs

snap call, our FE is running out, stove is being funky but i'll stove some ranges l8r.

Looks like an easy call tho

apollo_11

I would certainly call and cross my fingers that the button doesn't have a monster.
Your FE is now getting near the critical mark and KJ would do nicely for me to try and double through.
You are not likely to get to the top 3 by passing every time the BB raises into you. You have to take the all in races and get lucky to win or get placed in the top 3  in any tournament.

zxghostxz

i would FOLD.  with j k   you are almost def  behind and prob domitated . the best you can hope for is to be up agaist a shall pok pair and even then yor slightly behind.

silentbob

Against a seriel button raiser, with ante's in play & running out of chips fast............call (and hope for the best!)

If he's got a monster then so be it. At this stage the jumps in cash are not huge so you've got to go for the win IMO

mr_mbro

Hi Dave,
I fold in this situation.
Why, KJ is NOT a strong enough hand and the blinds have gone through me, so giving me a cahnce for a better hand or better situation. also giving someone else the chance to donk out out the tourney.
In this situation my range of calling hands would be AK or any pair above 99, but i am more the style of the BB. If i had the style of the SB then i would problably see it as good enough to call with, but not for me.
col

BigBluster

I would fold with KJ for a few tactical reasons:

1. the ladder principle applies
2. you've got the button next
3. the two stacks after you can be hurt by your stack (importantly gives you fold equity)
4. you're losing to A2
5. you have zero fold equity
6. shoving with any 2 is better than calling with KJ
7. if you make the FT, you may have the button again and have another 7 or 8 hands to play out

I would call with A8, 77+

LadyFingrs

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

I would fold with KJ for a few tactical reasons: 1. the ladder principle applies 2. you've got the button next 3. the two stacks after you can be hurt by your stack (importantly gives you fold equity) 4. you're losing to A2 5. you have zero fold equity 6. shoving with any 2 is better than calling with KJ 7. if you make the FT, you may have the button again and have another 7 or 8 hands to play out I would call with A8, 77+
Posted by BigBluster

I'd like to change my answr to this lol, didnt look at the stack sizes

Sky_Dave

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player....:

In Response to Re: Small blind, aggressive player.... : I'd like to change my answr to this lol, didnt look at the stack sizes
Posted by LadyFingrs

This reminds me of that Eddie Izzard 'Cake or Death' scene. 

Sorry, I'm afraid we're only allowed to take your first answer...