post removed

waynec

Realistically as you should already know, there is no definitive answer to this, and the replies you get are all going to be subjective. How he plays preflop could be entirely dependment on his opinion of you, if he thinks you're a complete rock, then he might think he can get you off a very large amount of flops  with ATC.

EDIT: Also, once a ton of other people call, he might think he's getting the implied odds to call thinking if he hits 2pr or trips, he can win a very big pot and if he doesn't, he loses 3BBs

waynec

Post removed its boring now and folks are commenting without reading the thread

benc

yeah i agree implied odds arguably make this a worthwile call. I dont like the the 40p raise under the gun with aj then just the call when you hit the ace as you have no idea where you are at with the hand and therefore have to make the "crying call" as you put it to the river value bet.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

Realistically as you should already know, there is no definitive answer to this, and the replies you get are all going to be subjective. How he plays preflop could be entirely dependment on his opinion of you, if he thinks you're a complete rock, then he might think he can get you off a very large amount of flops  with ATC. EDIT: Also, once a ton of other people call, he might think he's getting the implied odds to call thinking if he hits 2pr or trips, he can win a very big pot and if he doesn't, he loses 3BBs
Posted by Lambert180

+1 you hit the nail on the head

Thoich

Hi, I am the "donk" and just to clarify, I never claimed my play to be top class. Quite the opposite, I would say it is pretty standard because of the 3 callers, had there been no other callers I would have insta-folded.

I would say in this situation, the pre-flop hand percentages compared to the payout I recieved were definately profitable in the long term.

ricky1984

I have to say in a cash game, I would probably be making the call aswell

waynec

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

Hi, I am the "donk" and just to clarify, I never claimed my play to be top class. Quite the opposite, I would say it is pretty standard because of the 3 callers, had there been no other callers I would have insta-folded. I would say in this situation, the pre-flop hand percentages compared to the payout I recieved were definately profitable in the long term.
Posted by Thoich

Now m8 you did not at the time say u called because of odds to call, that was not the debate and the call with that in mind was not disputed. The debate was that 96 is/not a profitable hand long term, you claimed to have out played me I said you out drew me as to be out played I have to fold a better hand, I called with a losing hand. 

The question is still, is 96 a profitable hand long term?

waynec

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

yeah i agree implied odds arguably make this a worthwile call. I dont like the the 40p raise under the gun with aj then just the call when you hit the ace as you have no idea where you are at with the hand and therefore have to make the "crying call" as you put it to the river value bet.
Posted by benc

You dont like the raise!!!!!! What do you suggest Ido flat call, fold or jam??????

When the A hit he either had the 9 or a total bluff, to me he shouted out I have a 9 call so I had a good idea where I was hence just the call.... again what do you suggest here??????

Dudeskin8

I fold it preflop purely because you're OOP, it's unsuited and 2-gapped, if it was 67s/89s then I'd be more inclined.

Another thing being that I usually just click the check/fold box as soon as I see these and concentrate on another table. 

The way it's played by OP looks fine can't see how you can not call turn and river, fwiw I think Thoich lost value with very low river bet. 

Talon

    The overall question is simple. Firstly we have to ignore this hand and the result.

  There are a few possible reasons for calling with junk hands oop.

 Firstly to get lucky and hit the miracle flop and then try to get paid. This is a losing play in the long run always has been and always will be. You might win a few hands like this but it will be more than offset by the amount you pay to see these flops and when you only get a small pice and end up paying off.The thing is with these types of hands you are looking to hit flops which have odds of about 100 to 1 to make them profitable and then the implied odds are never enough to justify it.

 Secondly with connecting type cards(though these are a bit wide for my liking) you can take a look at a flop and try to pick up a draw which you can bet out with and either push your opponent off or hit and get paid off. But for this i would be looking for 1 gappers at best because in this case an 87x flop is unlikely.


 Thirdly. This relies on knowing the raising and betting tendencies of the original raiser.This means you can basically call with ATC to any raise with the intention of outplaying and or bullying them off the pot on later streets.

   So as i have said if the reason is one then it is just a losing play over time because it will not come in enough over time to make any money.If two then it is still suspect play provided you dont end up chasing really bad draws(like gutshots).If the reason is three though then this can be a very good play providing that firstly you have good reads and secondly you are not against a station who can never be bluffed.

rancid

It's a good price to flop lucky so..... not so bad

You also have to take in account reverse implied odds, because the flops 96 hit also hits better drawing holdings that have also called


take care when driving !

What makes this hand really bad is, it's one thing calling pre flop but it's another thing not getting oppo's stack

by not getting oppo's stack in effect makes this a bad call pre flop

If your going to call with these types of hands to get "lucky" then when you do, you have to play for oppo stack.
If you don't - it's a losing play over the long term
Why?
Because your not making up for the times you miss.

play is -EV
IMO

GREGHOGG

Wayne, I dont understand why u want to debate a standard hand in the table chat and then drag the poor lad into the clinic! Also dont call him a "donk" please.

Welcome Thoich btw, you shouldnt feel that you hae to justify your play to anyone! Its Your money, you can play what cards you want innit, in any position.

Talon is spot on as usual nice post Colin

FWIW, Wayne you played the hand spot on imo.

The_Don90

by the time it gets to the BB its 30p to win 1.70 + implied odds is almost making any two cards a call. at this level i probably still fold my 96. However post flop i rekon his bet sizes are a little small, expessially with an Ace on the turn hittig so many ranges.

Alhough going by the way you play it wayne u have no idea where u are, in that case just take the fold.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

by the time it gets to the BB its 30p to win 1.70 + implied odds is almost making any two cards a call. at this level i probably still fold my 96. However post flop i rekon his bet sizes are a little small, expessially with an Ace on the turn hittig so many ranges. Alhough going by the way you play it wayne u have no idea where u are, in that case just take the fold.
Posted by The_Don90

I don't understand this line are you suggesting he folds to turn/river bets or even worse 'raises for information?

I think wayne has played it fine but obvz no need to berate guy's play, just smile and think how much you make long term with those calls.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class : I don't understand this line are you suggesting he folds to turn/river bets or even worse 'raises for information? I think wayne has played it fine but obvz no need to berate guy's play, just smile and think how much you make long term with those calls.
Posted by Dudeskin8

we're 5 way with effective just one pair and a decent kicker on a paired board. We have no idea where we are. And chances are one of them have a 9. I think i can just fold turn.

Dudeskin8

To a half-pot bet, really? 

Jeez I must have forgot how to play cash cus there's no way I'm folding turn or river to half-pot and 1/3rd pot bets lol

DOHHHHHHH

lol @ fold turn.

My first instinct was raise/fold river.

But obv thats crazy

Call turn, snap call river. 

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class : Now m8 you did not at the time say u called because of odds to call, that was not the debate and the call with that in mind was not disputed. The debate was that 96 is/not a profitable hand long term, you claimed to have out played me I said you out drew me as to be out played I have to fold a better hand, I called with a losing hand.  The question is still, is 96 a profitable hand long term?
Posted by waynec

The point is, you can't say 96 is a profitable hand long term or not.

Can you say playing AK is a profitable hand if you're playing against a guy who you KNOW folds literally EVERYTHING except AA, no it's not. So there's no definitive answer, it depends entirely on the opponent.

I agree with people that a criticisim of Tioch is just that he didnt get Wayne's full stack here. Implied odds don't mean anything unless you get the chips when your hand comes along.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class : Now m8 you did not at the time say u called because of odds to call, that was not the debate and the call with that in mind was not disputed. The debate was that 96 is/not a profitable hand long term, you claimed to have out played me I said you out drew me as to be out played I have to fold a better hand, I called with a losing hand.  The question is still, is 96 a profitable hand long term?
Posted by waynec

Thats a pretty silly question. Sometimes its profitable to play 96, sometimes its not. Sometimes its profitable to play QQ, sometimes its not. It depends on:
- whether you call or raise
- opponents ranges
- stacksizes
- pot odds
- implied odds
-reverse implied odds
- can I win pot by bluffing when I miss
and prob other things I have forgotten

96o is not a strong hand, generally its prob not a good idea to call raises or limp with it

Also, dont call someone a donk and leave their name in.

In this particular hand I think you played your hand well.
 
Thioch prob should fold pre imo, but it depends how often he can stack you or others when he flops 2p+ and whether he can get it in profitably with draws on the flop. There will also sometimes be rio issues when he hits. Once he hits he should either lead or c/r flop, when it checks thru he should bet turn and river at least 3/4 pot.

Others have criticised thioch for not getting your stack, but dont see how he could have got it, he could have bet more obv on turn and river. However if he doesnt generally win more than this when he hits then his implied odd are not big enough for him to make the call

debdobs_67

I dont like the pre flop raise of 4x with this hand

I dont like the call by oppo

I dont like players calling others donks

I dont like leaving their name in if we do

Other than these points i have no opinion

Thoich

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class : Now m8 you did not at the time say u called because of odds to call, that was not the debate and the call with that in mind was not disputed. The debate was that 96 is/not a profitable hand long term, you claimed to have out played me I said you out drew me as to be out played I have to fold a better hand, I called with a losing hand.  The question is still, is 96 a profitable hand long term?
Posted by waynec

I actually did say this at the time, I said I only called because of the amount of other callers, which made the call profitable. Had I been facing an open raised from the button, I would of course have folded my 96o.

I would also like to add that I only claimed to outplay as a joke to attempt to frustrate you, because of your comments towards me about the hand. I actually think you played it well postflop and definately lost the minimum. I could have played it better postflop myself, but I still think I was priced in preflop with ATC.

LOL_RAISE

just because you have the correct odds preflop to call based on hand percentages (if you do), does not make it a profitable call long term

waynec

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

Wayne, I dont understand why u want to debate a standard hand in the table chat and then drag the poor lad into the clinic! Also dont call him a "donk" please. Welcome Thoich btw, you shouldnt feel that you hae to justify your play to anyone! Its Your money, you can play what cards you want innit, in any position. Talon is spot on as usual nice post Colin FWIW, Wayne you played the hand spot on imo.
Posted by GREGHOGG

Greg agreed should not call him a donk.... in my defence he called me a ATM donk after I made the call this upset me (which it should not have so being petty used this language... out of order) I took the beat with the comment NH and found the riddicule not very sporting which led to this post which he agreed to may I add.

huuuuume

as the answer asked was if the play was 'profitable long term' not whether the 96 hand has the correct odds to call then no it is not profitable long term.

knowing wayne had AJ means he prob did have the correct odds based on equity this time but still would not have had the correct odds if wayne had AA (a realistic part of the range for someone opening utg)

it is not profitable long term but looks like (im not great at math) he had the correct odds based on his equity this time.

waynec

Can we end this thread please I regret making it and the comments used, I was angry not with the out draw I am very used to that but to the unsporting comments made by the winner of the hand. The post was made with the agreement of the other player.

The arugment was weather 96 is profitable hand to play long term, as we all know the maths say no if we have implied odds to call or not.

END OF THREAD!

duonross

Standard play wayne, dont know why you would post this... dont think you played the hand wrong with thoich's bet sizes... and agreed that thoich's river bet should have been bigger especially with the ace out there... but no criticism of thoich's play pre flop... think a call or a fold with that hand pre flop with pot odds favourable is fair enough... so take it on the chin wayne... worst things happen in poker

grantorino

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

Can we end this thread please I regret making it and the comments used, I was angry not with the out draw I am very used to that but to the unsporting comments made by the winner of the hand. The post was made with the agreement of the other player. The arugment was weather 96 is profitable hand to play long term, as we all know the maths say no if we have implied odds to call or not. END OF THREAD!
Posted by waynec

you are missing the point. And if he has implied odds to call then obv the math would say yes

rancid

computer says no

LOL_RAISE

preflop hand percentages are basically meaningless in this scenario

rancid

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

preflop hand percentages are basically meaningless in this scenario
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Are they really meaningless ?

versus 4 other random hands - no pairs - vill has got 10%

so at best 10% - at worst 2%

I suppose it's just impossible to range the other four hands

waynec

In Response to Re: Posted on the behalf of a donk who says his play top class:

Standard play wayne, dont know why you would post this... dont think you played the hand wrong with thoich's bet sizes... and agreed that thoich's river bet should have been bigger especially with the ace out there... but no criticism of thoich's play pre flop... think a call or a fold with that hand pre flop with pot odds favourable is fair enough... so take it on the chin wayne... worst things happen in poker
Posted by duonross

u need to read the post m8 its not about the out draw for 100th time, its about playing 96 and simular hands long term.

So can I point out been playing long enough to know beats happen and I do take them on the chin thats poker and all the sh it and sh ite