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Can we raise river as played?
Sorry for putting up a live hand here but its seriously bugging me. Will give as much detail as possible.
Playing a 25/50p cash game at my local. I've been on a serious heater, never seen anything like it. Am connecting massively with every hand. I think I flopped about 7 sets and a few straights.
Normally I'm pretty rocky, but table has gone from 8 handed to 4 handed and everyone is about 300bb's deep.
Because of the heater I limp the button with Kd8d, SB raises 4x (pretty solid, mainly just plays his hands, BB calls (normally a good Lag but is tilting). I call.
I flop top two, on a Kc 8c 3d flop. SB quickly checks. BB leads potish, something like £5 into £6. I make it £16.25, loking for action from a bigger K or club draw. Initial pre flop raiser cold calls my raise, as does the BB who opponed the flop.
I think there's about £40 in there. Kc 8c 3d 5h. Seems like a afe turn. SB checks, as does the BB. I dont get the SB line at all. Can only think he has A's K's or AK, slowplaying. I bet £22 which they both Call.
Around £100 in pot, everyone has about £100 or so in their stack.
Kc8c3d5h Js. Now the SB leads out for £33, which the SB calls quickly. I dont think he'd ever call with a plain one pair hand.
Read wise the SB doesnt usually play like this. I thought there was a reasonable shot he'd play K's this way, but also maybe KJ. I'm not overly worried about the BB calling the river lead from the SB. I decide to just call with the concealed two pair, winning vs AK (SB) and Jc5c (club draw backing into two pr).
I know the limp pre is bad, just playing the heater. But as played is just calling river awful?
At the time I didnt think that the players would call a shove by me on river with a worse hand, but I dont see how SB leads out then folds to a shove, or that the BB releases his bad two pair.
Playing a 25/50p cash game at my local. I've been on a serious heater, never seen anything like it. Am connecting massively with every hand. I think I flopped about 7 sets and a few straights.
Normally I'm pretty rocky, but table has gone from 8 handed to 4 handed and everyone is about 300bb's deep.
Because of the heater I limp the button with Kd8d, SB raises 4x (pretty solid, mainly just plays his hands, BB calls (normally a good Lag but is tilting). I call.
I flop top two, on a Kc 8c 3d flop. SB quickly checks. BB leads potish, something like £5 into £6. I make it £16.25, loking for action from a bigger K or club draw. Initial pre flop raiser cold calls my raise, as does the BB who opponed the flop.
I think there's about £40 in there. Kc 8c 3d 5h. Seems like a afe turn. SB checks, as does the BB. I dont get the SB line at all. Can only think he has A's K's or AK, slowplaying. I bet £22 which they both Call.
Around £100 in pot, everyone has about £100 or so in their stack.
Kc8c3d5h Js. Now the SB leads out for £33, which the SB calls quickly. I dont think he'd ever call with a plain one pair hand.
Read wise the SB doesnt usually play like this. I thought there was a reasonable shot he'd play K's this way, but also maybe KJ. I'm not overly worried about the BB calling the river lead from the SB. I decide to just call with the concealed two pair, winning vs AK (SB) and Jc5c (club draw backing into two pr).
I know the limp pre is bad, just playing the heater. But as played is just calling river awful?
At the time I didnt think that the players would call a shove by me on river with a worse hand, but I dont see how SB leads out then folds to a shove, or that the BB releases his bad two pair.
Comments
So you dont think flatting river is that bad then? Can I ask why? I finished massively up and felt this was a spot I missed out on.
But at the same time, if I shove here on river, I think they both would have called then the game would have been done. I managed to play for an hour or so more, continuing to run super hot.
Even if other people say that flatting is bad, do you think it can be a case of "shearing a sheep" many times?
Always amuses me when someone latches on to one element of a post to be rude. Even when you have no idea of my table image, opponents played against or dynamic, or my reasons for limping the button. As though its just plain dumb to limp in every spot, always. Some individuals are so arrogant, believing that they always think their way is the right thing, when they just have no idea about the context of a table.
Snap judgment for the win!!
rather than cryin about it, think about why i said it
For as many reasons to raise, there are reasons to limp in certain spots. But I'm sure that reading part of one hand out of a a 4 hour session makes you qualified to be right.
Just laughable, really is, the egomania. In the OP I even say it aint great limping in. Trust some egomaniac to just jump on it anyway.
In this spot am happy to raise or limp for a wide variety of reasons. Its funny how ppl auto demean from the armchair dynamics they have never seen.
Don't know what dynamic would make you limp button with that hand ?
call river
TwennyP
open limpin the button is BAD, there are no "dynamics", there is no "blinkered view", and there is not a "wide variety of reasons" to ever open limp button in this spot, its just BAD!...
im not an egomaniac, im not a pro, ill never be a pro, & i dont wanna be a pro. i play the game as a hobby & if i make a bit of dosh along the way then great! im pretty new to the game but ive done ok for myself so far, cant complain & tbh the game interests me, i like discussin it & if any of the stuff i write here helps players a bit then great! if ppl think im talkin rubbish then cool, obviously i want to learn alot more myself!...but im not the type of guy to sugarcoat stuff, ill basically just say stuff how i see it, if it upsets ya then go grow a set! tough love ftw imo
if you actually noticed other ppl who have posted in this thread (opinions from players who i think you should listen too) have said exactly the same thing as me & tbh i promise 99% of the players who have read this will think exactly the same, some may sugarcoat it, others wont bother replyin, & maybe somebody will write an essay for ya on whilst open limpin the button is bad but its all the same thing. my view is your playin nl50, your talkin about reads, lines, dynamics etc i honestly shouldnt have to explain to you why open limpin the button sucks.
rather than thinking "this guy is a complete tool, who the **** does he think he is" think about why i have said it, it will be alot more valuable to you! if you honestly think that there are valid reasons for limpin the btn, cool, carry on! i honestly could care less, but your just deludin yourself...if you genuinely dont realise & wanna know my reasons for limpin the btn is bad then ill happily drop you a pm.
gl at the tables anyway sir, you have my word i wont comment on any future hands you post.
I understand the thought process, but it be more profitbale raising button than limping even on a heater )
May aswell go down the local bingo hall
or maybe just explain what dynamic would make limping the button more profitable in the short term let alone long term
If you have aggro players in the blinds then they gonna 3 bet your btn open so why limp
Why would you pot control from the button
Short stack games, even more of reason to open btn with a wider range
Let me just say that I don't agree with you and leave it there.
I remember reading ages ago an article on why we raise & not limp, this is pretty much what it entailed, bein new to the game at the time this was some of the best info i read
why we raise & dont limp...
how do you win a big pot?
your almost never gonna win a sizeable pot by limpin, unless your opponent hits the flop very hard, but you hit it harder. when you raise preflop your introducing another layer to the game: cbettin with air, double barrel bluffin, the over-valueing of hands by your opponent due to the appearance of your aggressive image, bluffing etc. THATS not happening in a limped pot, or rarely. A raised pot is also better suited for stacking someone, the bet sizes are more easy to faciltate an all in
I can lose a big pot?
You limp a hand like Q3d and flop a flush. The BB had K4d and would have folded to a preflop raise, STACKED. i think this is a bad example because it works the other way too. a better way too put it is limpin may put you in tough situations with big hands that become ABC situations if the pot is raised.
The idea of raising vs limping directly correlates to the idea of switching gears, or changing tempo during your session. The more often your raising pre flop, the more likely your opponent will take a stand against your frequent preflop raises in the wrong spot or spew chips off by making an herioc calldown. As you notice people making plays at you, or calling you lightly, react by either a) firing more barrels at them, or b) folding preflop.
The great thing about a raised pot is that you dont need to get to showdown to win. and if you do hit, your hand strength is disguised. People will often be calling your frequent raises (key point here, THEY are calling & YOU are raising, thats the way it should be) thinking they have implied odds to crack you if i hit, of course thats not true, because you can easily dump your hand postflop- the money is only going in with the best of it. Limpin bleeds money.
By raising pre-flop your creating +EV situations where none existed before. couple this with solid postflop play & your onto a winner. limping is just asking good players to pick on you!
besides, raising is fun :-P