at what point do you take over the betting!

pod1

very competent reg. where do we, if ever take over the betting on a hand like this. where does tptk go from being a big hand to an ok hand. should we just let him bet out, if not when do we reraise?

bichasila	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£23.83
FORDYCE	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£25.07
	Your hole cards	K A
Tens	Fold
mitieng2	Fold
pod1	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£19.55
bichasila	Fold
FORDYCE	Call		£0.40	£1.30	£24.67
Flop
		K J 4
FORDYCE	Bet		£0.98	£2.28	£23.69
pod1	Call		£0.98	£3.26	£18.57
Turn
		3
FORDYCE	Bet		£2.00	£5.26	£21.69
pod1	Call		£2.00	£7.26	£16.57
River
		10
FORDYCE	Bet		£5.45	£12.71	£16.24
pod1	Call		£5.45	£18.16	£11.12

DOHHHHHHH

1 pair is never that great a hand, esp when this guy bets more than 1 street.

Prob fold river.

LOL_RAISE

id call down because i cant see a competant reg leading flop with a hand >1pair.

river is a bad card though, but im a payoff wizard

his sizing is pretty weird aswell 3/4 pot flop  then he bets undert 2/3rds on turn and back to 3/4pot button on river

Dudeskin8

If you think he's bluffing/betting with worse there's no need to raise just let him barrel off.

Obvz if he's donkbetting flop then betting turn and river it makes it more likely he has something good/better than TPTK.

NColley

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

id call down because i cant see a competant reg leading flop with a hand />1pair. river is a bad card though, but im a payoff wizard his sizing is pretty weird aswell 3/4 pot flop  then he bets undert 2/3rds on turn and back to 3/4pot button on river
Posted by LOL_RAISE

I have this unfourtunate problem too.

rancid

call and hope he likes KQ alot

Could be beating you but like what's said above why donk flop

huuuuume

he is never donk leading a hand worse than yours.

i'd reraise flop then on that river be willing to continue value betting.

as played against this guy river is fold

pod1

i dont understand huuuume, you say he wont donk bet with ahand worse than i got yet you say reraise?.

i thought i was ahead post and was thinking about reraising but do i lose him with a bad k? each street my chance of losing this hand increases, should i have shut it down earlier or was flatting the easy way out?

liamboi11

yeah this guy is defo well ahead here played with him many times 1 pair no good

AMYBR

I station this, our hand isnt meant to be this big on button

Opponent betting 3 streets.  As board runs KJ/K10 are only hands I sweat, but I do call down.

pod1

k 10 grrrrrrr, just felt i should have been a bit more assertive, just didnt know when to be :-)

Dudeskin8

He got lucky, most times he doesn't hit two pair on the river, if you raise flop/turn you probz make him fold which is bad for you.

AMYBR

Think I likely raise turn readless, but think you played it fine bud.

Just vul

WHOAMI196

 at what point do you take over the betting! ..

..The flop! donk bets tend to be draws, esp from donks. Plus donk betting is just plain rude lol

.. as he is unlikely to be stone-cold bluffing on the turn(you have had your value if that is the case), a raise is a must. . . to get value from draws and not to get out-drawn without having evidence to realize this, (hard to fold) therefore paying him off when he hits the river. . . as is the case here.

rancid

played it fine, ul

donk bet TPGK to btn raise pre


whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!

doubled turn bada bing

haha nice river (((((((

yb

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

Think I likely raise turn readless, but think you played it fine bud. Just vul
Posted by AMYBR

raising turn makes no sense, it just over reps our hand and gets him to fold all his single pair hands in all likelyhood which is obviously a bad thing.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : raising turn makes no sense, it just over reps our hand and gets him to fold all his single pair hands in all likelyhood which is obviously a bad thing.
Posted by yb

You are more likely to get value from raising the turn . . . as is the case with most scenarios.

yb

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : You are more likely to get value from raising the turn . . . as is the case with most scenarios.
Posted by WHOAMI196

not when raising folds out pretty much every hand we beat...

AMYBR

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : raising turn makes no sense, it just over reps our hand and gets him to fold all his single pair hands in all likelyhood which is obviously a bad thing.
Posted by yb

In your opinion.

When raising turn is only for value. 

Opponent  just as easily shuts down river.

We dont hwant him to go anywhere, result regardless. 

But lot of rivers shut down action, cant just assume he folds after leading two streets

rancid

reads FTW

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : not when raising folds out pretty much every hand we beat...
Posted by yb

Your logic is different to mine, not to say its wrong, but avoiding tough decisions is the way for me. Theres not a lot of hands we call on the turn that would continue on the river, 1 pairs are likely to check(check/call) draws will give up(or slight chance of bluffing), and the only hands that will continue on the river are hands we lose to . . .

My Quesion is: What range are we getting value from the villain on the river??

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : Your logic is different to mine, not to say its wrong, but avoiding tough decisions is the way for me. Theres not a lot of hands we call on the turn that would continue on the river, 1 pairs are likely to check(check/call) draws will give up(or slight chance of bluffing), and the only hands that will continue on the river are hands we lose to . . . My Quesion is: What range are we getting value from the villain on the river??
Posted by WHOAMI196

The hand he has minus binking two pair on da river.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : The hand he has minus binking two pair on da river.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Sorry, what range is that then . . .

yb

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : Your logic is different to mine, not to say its wrong, but avoiding tough decisions is the way for me. Theres not a lot of hands we call on the turn that would continue on the river, 1 pairs are likely to check(check/call) draws will give up(or slight chance of bluffing), and the only hands that will continue on the river are hands we lose to . . . My Quesion is: What range are we getting value from the villain on the river??
Posted by WHOAMI196

if this is our read then we can play perfectly by calling the turn and vbetting the river if checked to and folding if villain fires the third barrel.

when you raise the turn all you're going to achieve is playing for a bigger pot when behind and winning a smaller pot when you're ahead, because he probably won't continue with worse.

rancid

We only raise if we know oppo donks worse and pays off our raises be it flop, turn or river

 

Depends if you think raising donk leads is standard play with TPTK

Sure without reads we more often than not fold out range we beat and inflate pot versus range we lose to

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re:when you raise the turn all you're going to achieve is playing for a bigger pot when behind and winning a smaller pot when you're ahead, because he probably won't continue with worse.
Posted by yb

I love the logic, but i dont think it applies here; personaly. My main point here is "whats his range", What is he betting with?  he is unlikely to triple-barrell bluff the river, he is more likely to call a raise on the turn with his draws. There are no made hands on the board as of yet, but there are straight draws and flush draws.

KJ-set is the only hand we fear, so playing a big pot here is not a bad thing, as we are likely to be well ahead of his overall-percieved range.

By just calling the turn, over time, we are going to face a tough decision.Resulting in just calling (a potential river bet) with the best hand(losing value), and calling(never folding) when we are behind, bad play.

EDIT the only time i would call the turn if i felt that i was behind, fold if he continues the river, and bet for value on the river if he checks.

potattoooo

raising the turn is lol

Glenelg

I don't play cash but aspire to so I like to read the clinic to try & learn. As I see it he is surely betting for value here?  Just purely on the betting pattern I reckon hes flopped a set?

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

raising the turn is lol
Posted by potattoooo

And the Award for the "Poker-Clinic Contributor of the Year" goes to. . .

potattoooo

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : And the Award for the "Poker-Clinic Contributor of the Year" goes to. . .
Posted by WHOAMI196

you won that when you said raise the turn

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : you won that when you said raise the turn
Posted by potattoooo

Bothered!