at what point do you take over the betting!

huuuuume

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

i dont understand huuuume, you say he wont donk bet with ahand worse than i got yet you say reraise?. i thought i was ahead post and was thinking about reraising but do i lose him with a bad k? each street my chance of losing this hand increases, should i have shut it down earlier or was flatting the easy way out?
Posted by pod1

I didnt re read it but i meant to say i dont think he is ever donking with a hand better than yours (sorry if mistyped it before) but i also dont think he is ever donking pure air.  there is the risk you blow him off a weaker king but you make him pay to chase any draws.  he is never folding top pair against me in this spot so it also depends on how he views you

i also like reraising the flop so that he doesnt get any clues about leading into me regularly and therefore i can control the action more often in these types of spots when im opening the button every orbit. 

obv unlucky but river is fold always here.  he just never barrels anything that you beat on the end

grantorino

dont raise anywhere postflop unless you like turning TPTK into a bluff that never makes better hands fold

depending on reads you can prob fold river

pod1

tatty, you never commented how you would play it, thoughts welcome. as for comments above, he is solid reg and i was playing him on 6 tables at the time. very rarley he leads out unless he thinks he is ahead of my range. maybe i was a bit results orientated here and more times than not i would win this. had he hit a set i have not over inflated the pot by raising flop or turn and kept it under control.

huuuuume

he is never leading out with a set or 2 pair here....literally never.

raising post flop (specifically on the flop) is not with the intention of turning tptk into a bluff - it is with the intention of getting value from villain when you are almost always ahead in the hand.

grantorino

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

he is never leading out with a set or 2 pair here....literally never. raising post flop (specifically on the flop) is not with the intention of turning tptk into a bluff - it is with the intention of getting value from villain when you are almost always ahead in the hand.
Posted by huuuuume

I would think a competent reg is much more likely to donk 2p+ than top pair on this board (maybe you have specific reads on this guy). What range does a decent player donk and call or 3bet on that board that we beat? Maybe KQ, maybe ifs hes aggro he goes nuts with some other hands here, but without specific history call />>raise on every street imo

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : I didnt re read it but i meant to say i dont think he is ever donking with a hand better than yours (sorry if mistyped it before) but i also dont think he is ever donking pure air.  there is the risk you blow him off a weaker king but you make him pay to chase any draws.  he is never folding top pair against me in this spot so it also depends on how he views you i also like reraising the flop so that he doesnt get any clues about leading into me regularly and therefore i can control the action more often in these types of spots when im opening the button every orbit.  obv unlucky but river is fold always here.  he just never barrels anything that you beat on the end
Posted by huuuuume

I agree with you huuuume, esp the "bolded" bit. Being in contol in a hand and avoiding tough spots, will ensure that your destined to make profit in the long run.

huuuuume

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : I would think a competent reg is much more likely to donk 2p+ than top pair on this board (maybe you have specific reads on this guy). What range does a decent player donk and call or 3bet on that board that we beat? Maybe KQ, maybe ifs hes aggro he goes nuts with some other hands here, but without specific history call />>raise on every street imo
Posted by grantorino

the range should be balanced but considering the stakes it is not likely to be that balanced.  villain never has K4 or J4 and will never donk bet KJ 44 or JJ.  on the flop we are ahead and should bet for value.

you're forgetting that pod1 is a decent reg also and can be opening pretty much anything and everything from the button.

pod will also cbet ~80% of the flops in position (maybe more when it flops like this) so if he has a big hand here and like you say he is a decent reg why would he ever ever lead the flop?  he wont be leading the flop ever with a hand bigger than tptk because he wont want to see pod1 insta fold and him then miss getting any value from his 2 pair/set type hands.

if pod1 is just going to flat call every street when he is this strong then villain may as well lead all draws knowing that he can get to the river at a price of his choosing and knowing if he hits he can bet river for value every time.  also if we dont reraise these flops with this type of hand then he can lead every time knowing that the only time he is getting reraised is when we have a complete monster and then he can get away from loads of hands we would ordinarily be able to get value from. 

btw its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to lead flop with top pair 3rd kicker and its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to barrel with these type of hands especially when pod1 could (and should) be opening pretty wide from the button pre flop.

pod1

totally agree with this huuuume, its a big leak in my game i think . if im only reraising with monsters then any decent player is laying down half decent hands that i should be being paid off on. allowing players to "catch up" on draws by playing too passive is another hole in my game. against 80 % of players at nl20/30 i get away with it and do very well , but players like him and most players at nl40/50 i get punished. thanks for feedback huuume its defiantly food for thought.   phil

rancid

thats some serious meta and balance huuuuuume )

Surely we have to know that if we raise flop with this hand then oppo will pay off because it is just as likely we raise here with btm of range

- in this situation if oppo perceives we only raise with top of range then raising is not good
- likewise if we are perceived to be raising all range then raising is ok

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

grantorino

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting!:

In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : the range should be balanced but considering the stakes it is not likely to be that balanced.  villain never has K4 or J4 and will never donk bet KJ 44 or JJ.  on the flop we are ahead and should bet for value.

Even if we are ahead 100% it doesnt always mean we should bet for value. Why should/would he lead KT but not KJ?

you're forgetting that pod1 is a decent reg also and can be opening pretty much anything and everything from the button.

Not forgetting this at all, but I fail to see why that means villain never donks monsters but does donk midstrength hands or draws

pod will also cbet ~80% of the flops in position (maybe more when it flops like this) so if he has a big hand here and like you say he is a decent reg why would he ever ever lead the flop?  he wont be leading the flop ever with a hand bigger than tptk because he wont want to see pod1 insta fold and him then miss getting any value from his 2 pair/set type hands.

Does this not apply to TP hands , even 2nd pair hands also as pods range is pretty wide? Should he only donk draws/air by this logic?

if pod1 is just going to flat call every street when he is this strong then villain may as well lead all draws knowing that he can get to the river at a price of his choosing and knowing if he hits he can bet river for value every time.  also if we dont reraise these flops with this type of hand then he can lead every time knowing that the only time he is getting reraised is when we have a complete monster and then he can get away from loads of hands we would ordinarily be able to get value from. 

I wouldnt be too worried about being exploited, especially if you think above he cant balance his range. Also you can bluffraise him as well as raise with monsters. Sometimes we call with weaker hands and he wont get paid off . Against a good opponent who donks a lot and we have reads/history against I think you can raise here. Pod hasnt posted any and I think in a vacuum raising isnt great here. But yeah there are some meta and balancing issues which can make raising good
 
btw its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to lead flop with top pair 3rd kicker and its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to barrel with these type of hands especially when pod1 could (and should) be opening pretty wide from the button pre flop.

No its not, and I never said it was although I dont see much reason for villain to lead tpwk into a btn open from a player like pod. I dont think many competent regs at lower level are b/c or b/3b with tpwk oop without a bit of aggro history though, and I would regard b/3b with KT on that flop as pretty aggro at micros and certainly wouldnt be standard for most regs
Posted by huuuuume

Just my 2c, I may be wrong on all the above as you certainly know what you are talking about