Did i shove too early in this DYM?

VespaPX

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
VespaPX	Small blind		50.00	50.00	1845.00
BLIND-PUGH	Big blind		100.00	150.00	2119.25
	Your hole cards	A 10
tyler85	Fold
pkallin	Call		100.00	250.00	5680.53
VespaPX	All-in		1845.00	2095.00	0.00
BLIND-PUGH	Fold
pkallin	Call		1795.00	3890.00	3885.53
VespaPX	Show	A 10
pkallin	Show	7 3
Flop
		6 5 K
Turn
		8
River
		3
pkallin	Win	Pair of 3s	3890.00		7775.53

GREGHOGG

You are not in any danger so you can just fold.  Tyler has about 2.2k too...  But, If you are going to play the hand i like your shove. Making up is bad imo.

If you are playing dyms alot, it is important to note the limp callers and the limp folders. Both are exploitable.

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

You are not in any danger so you can just fold.  Tyler has about 2.2k too...  But, If you are going to play the hand i like your shove. Making up is bad imo. If you are playing dyms alot, it is important to note the limp callers and the limp folders. Both are exploitable.
Posted by GREGHOGG

Cheers for the reply buddy,
The opponent who called me was shoving from level 1 with anything so just thought it was an opportunity to double up even though (as you said) Tyler had similar stack.
I'm usually pretty tight on the DYM's and quite patient.
Just put it down to unlucky river card ! lol

Dudeskin8

Shove is never super bad especially against limpers who most likely have nout but in general with 18bbs like here you don't NEED to that badly so can just fold. 

Looking again though you are 4-handed and shortest stack so I think shove is fine. 

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

Shove is never super bad especially against limpers who most likely have nout but in general with 18bbs like here you don't NEED to that badly so can just fold.  Looking again though you are 4-handed and shortest stack so I think shove is fine. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

Cheers Dude

IDONKCALLU

if blinds were 200/400 then easy all in but blinds still low here its a fold for me ya might aswell have 2 7 here or 2 3 if u get called by ya all in ya more then likely to be dominated here at best flipping 

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

if blinds were 200/400 then easy all in but blinds still low here its a fold for me ya might aswell have 2 7 here or 2 3 if u get called by ya all in ya more then likely to be dominated here at best flipping 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Cheers buddy,
Advice taken on board and noted.

TWRAMYEP

I don't know why everyone is stuck on either shoving or folding this, you can do some of your own thinking with spots like this and stop playing robotic, calling is certainly an option here and imo is easly the best play.

Calling and playing some streets is the most +EV play here for anyone who is not a complete drooler. Sure shoving is profatable but almost certainly not the most optimal this deep and with all the equity we have, folding a hand this strong is weak and misses  too much value.

Calling and playing somewhat passivly post with lines like folding everything ya miss all the time, and playing top pr second pr with check/calling small bets and bet small/fold lines and using your hand reading skill, reads etc. I mean if you cant fold top pr, second pr and draws etc shoving or folding is probably best but if you have any skills playing some poker here is good.

We are pritty much joint second with the other two 2k stacks and have loads of equity in this. Big stack is obviously a fish and will be donating loads and there is nothing to say we cant call and play for a small pot that we have big edges in.

Poker_Fail

I think this has to be a limp, my reason being this sentence: "The opponent who called me was shoving from level 1 with anythin" with that info he will be calling you MUCH lighter than most opppos, and when you have A10 you simply do not want a call.The only reason I say to make up the blind is cos folding would suck and you don''t want to inflate the pot OOP by raising, if you call for 50 chips you still have a chance of hitting it well and getting a little pot to build your stack with much less risk.

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

I don't know why everyone is stuck on either shoving or folding this, you can do some of your own thinking with spots like this and stop playing robotic, calling is certainly an option here and imo is easly the best play. Calling and playing some streets is the most +EV play here for anyone who is not a complete drooler. Sure shoving is profatable but almost certainly not the most optimal this deep and with all the equity we have, folding a hand this strong is weak and misses  too much value. Calling and playing somewhat passivly post with lines like folding everything ya miss all the time, and playing top pr second pr with check/calling small bets and bet small/fold lines and using your hand reading skill, reads etc. I mean if you cant fold top pr, second pr and draws etc shoving or folding is probably best but if you have any skills playing some poker here is good. We are pritty much joint second with the other two 2k stacks and have loads of equity in this. Big stack is obviously a fish and will be donating loads and there is nothing to say we cant call and play for a small pot that we have big edges in.
Posted by TWRAMYEP

Cheers mate
Very interesting

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

I think this has to be a limp, my reason being this sentence: "The opponent who called me was shoving from level 1 with anythin" with that info he will be calling you MUCH lighter than most opppos, and when you have A10 you simply do not want a call.The only reason I say to make up the blind is cos folding would suck and you don''t want to inflate the pot OOP by raising, if you call for 50 chips you still have a chance of hitting it well and getting a little pot to build your stack with much less risk.
Posted by Poker_Fail

Cheers buddy

BorinLoner

I don't think we can ever make-up the small blind in a DYM and hope to be profitable. This is all about conserving your stack and surviving. Never, ever limp or make-up. It's going to result in dribbling away chips when we don't hit the flop, which will be most of the time.

I don't hate the shove. I'd prefer a straight-foward fold if we think he's going to call us super-wide. If he's playing every hand, not letting go of 73, then he's going to get himself caught out against a hand much stronger than AT. It doesn't have to be you that gets him, as long as one of your opponents does. He might even get lucky and bust someone with his weak hand - which is exactly what happened to you.

The shove's fine, since DYM's play so differently to standard SNG's. I'd fold it most of the time, but that depends on meta-game issues.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

I don't think we can ever make-up the small blind in a DYM and hope to be profitable. This is all about conserving your stack and surviving. Never, ever limp or make-up. It's going to result in dribbling away chips when we don't hit the flop, which will be most of the time. I don't hate the shove. I'd prefer a straight-foward fold if we think he's going to call us super-wide. If he's playing every hand, not letting go of 73, then he's going to get himself caught out against a hand much stronger than AT. It doesn't have to be you that gets him, as long as one of your opponents does. He might even get lucky and bust someone with his weak hand - which is exactly what happened to you. The shove's fine, since DYM's play so differently to standard SNG's. I'd fold it most of the time, but that depends on meta-game issues.
Posted by BorinLoner

IMO you can in certain occasions, this being one of them, the description of oppo certainly paints him as a fish, and i think in this case making up the blind and small-balling if we hit a piece of the flop, can often earn us a welcome little pot.

I think most DYM players underestimate the power of building their stack

At the 2nd bolded bit, because I would so rarely advocate making up the blind it would barely make a difference in that respect.

BorinLoner

I think there's a common misconception that the idea of small-balling means doing things as cheaply as possible. What it actually is about is taking the aggressive line, as cheaply as possible - 2.2x or 2.5x raising in unopened pots. If we make up here we're only going to hit about 1/3 flops. We also have to expect that if our opponent misses he won't pay us off either. So limping just takes us to the flop, which we'll have to play out of position against an unknown hand, knowing that we'll miss 2/3 times. If we do hit, the only way we'll get paid is if our opponent also hits, but slightly weaker than we have. If we miss, we can't win the hand without going crazy.

If we know that our opponent is limping weak hands, why let him see the flop? Playing passively, out of position is bad in any form of the game.

rancid

raise – play poker

 

Shoving is not good with this stack and holding A10

BorinLoner

I don't think you can raise here to 300, since few players will limp for 100 and then fold for 200 more. The minimum raise you could hope to get a fold for would be 400 and that's more than 1/5 of your stack. Just imagine the troubles of putting in 1/5 of your stack, being called, then missing the flop as you did... I think you shove or fold here, especially given that it's a DYM. I fold. Shoving isn't bad against most players but if he's a nutter (as described) I think it probably isn't too good an idea.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

I think there's a common misconception that the idea of small-balling means doing things as cheaply as possible. What it actually is about is taking the aggressive line, as cheaply as possible - 2.2x or 2.5x raising in unopened pots. If we make up here we're only going to hit about 1/3 flops. We also have to expect that if our opponent misses he won't pay us off either. So limping just takes us to the flop, which we'll have to play out of position against an unknown hand, knowing that we'll miss 2/3 times. If we do hit, the only way we'll get paid is if our opponent also hits, but slightly weaker than we have. If we miss, we can't win the hand without going crazy. If we know that our opponent is limping weak hands, why let him see the flop? Playing passively, out of position is bad in any form of the game.
Posted by BorinLoner

Given he is a fsih, we can get paid with MUCH weaker than whatever we hit.

As we are the shortest stack (only slightly though) it would make us much more comfortable to gain a few chips, IMO this is the safest way possible, in this scenario.

Yes we will miss most of the time, but 50 chips on a very rare occasion really doesn't matter.

We can't stop a player like this from seeing a flop without putting our stack in danger

BorinLoner

We can stop him seeing the flop against us: We can fold. I'm not sayin that if we put in 50 chips in a spot like this it's a massive leak. It is a leak, but hardly anything to write home about. The fact that this has been posted on the clinic suggests that the player views a make-up as being fine in many spots. It really isn't. View it across 10 DYM's and you'll leak off 500 chips in spots like this.

I can't say that it's a dramatically huge mistake to make-up here, but it is a mistake by the numbers and it would be better if we tried to make no mistakes at all.

rancid

Nothing bad in folding, think it's better than shoving

raise is good ya!
Oppo will miss 2/3 so c bet take pot
by iimping you win only when you hit so 1/3, by raising you win 2/3

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

Nothing bad in folding, think it's better than shoving raise is good ya! Oppo will miss 2/3 so c bet take pot by iimping you win only when you hit so 1/3, by raising you win 2/3
Posted by rancid

Not that simple, oppo is fish, not unlikely to call flop very weak, maybe even no hand. you'd be risking a lot for still quite a small pot.

rancid

so fish is going to call pre and post with no hand

ok, sorry but call pre - yes, hardly post unless oppo got a tiny bit of it

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

We can stop him seeing the flop against us: We can fold. I'm not sayin that if we put in 50 chips in a spot like this it's a massive leak. It is a leak, but hardly anything to write home about. The fact that this has been posted on the clinic suggests that the player views a make-up as being fine in many spots. It really isn't. View it across 10 DYM's and you'll leak off 500 chips in spots like this. I can't say that it's a dramatically huge mistake to make-up here, but it is a mistake by the numbers and it would be better if we tried to make no mistakes at all.
Posted by BorinLoner

+1

SHANXTA

raising is suicide vs a maniac who is gonna flat in pos wiv ATC

call > shove > fold > raise

i think, but this rely's on being able to play well post flop

rancid

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

raising is suicide vs a maniac who is gonna flat in pos wiv ATC call /> shove /> fold /> raise i think, but this rely's on being able to play well post flop
Posted by SHANXTA

       how is calling good   - maybe fold />all - and just not get involved with maniac with marignal hands )

If you don't like playing oop then just fold

btw, how is oppo a maniac by limping - lols
If manaic is shoving then just raise/snap oppo shove )

suppose we could call, hit hand, check - get paid ( maybe call />all - but still going for a raise here though

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

raising is suicide vs a maniac who is gonna flat in pos wiv ATC call /> shove /> fold /> raise i think, but this rely's on being able to play well post flop
Posted by SHANXTA

Id say generally that shove /> fold  /> call > raise

but fold is sometimes better than shove as in this situation

But i cant argue with your record Mr M! so maybe i need to learn how to play post flop here lol

might play some dyms later actually.. its been a while

BorinLoner

I've been over why I think making-up is bad. The raise also looks really bad to me. It's good if it draws the fold, but most of the time it won't. So when we're called we're playing an inflated pot, out of position which we will hit 1/3 times. Some of those times we hit will be a ten with an overcard on the board - T4K for example. Where are we now? What do we do when we miss?

What do we do when we are 3-bet all-in, pre-flop? Our AT doesn't look so good anymore.

Raising less than all-in is probably the worst thing we can do here.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

raising is suicide vs a maniac who is gonna flat in pos wiv ATC call /> shove /> fold > raise i think, but this rely's on being able to play well post flop
Posted by SHANXTA

I'm glad you agree with the call in this spot : )

I still think fold is better than shove though as this type of oppo has SO many hands that he calls with that we are only 60% against.

But i deffo agree that shove is better than raise.

IMO     Call />Fold>Shove>Raise

rancid

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

I've been over why I think making-up is bad. The raise also looks really bad to me. It's good if it draws the fold, but most of the time it won't. So when we're called we're playing an inflated pot, out of position which we will hit 1/3 times. Some of those times we hit will be a ten with an overcard on the board - T4K for example. Where are we now? What do we do when we miss? What do we do when we are 3-bet all-in, pre-flop? Our AT doesn't look so good anymore. Raising less than all-in is probably the worst thing we can do here.
Posted by BorinLoner

Yep and oppo will miss 2/3
c bet

Can't see oppo who limps is suddenly going to go from uber passive to uber manaic in one street :S

What has oppo been shoving before ATC ?<-------------- important
If so then just wait for made hand, 18bb - we can wait right


FOLD

Poker_Fail

BTW Shanxta has a 12% ROI whichis VERY good for DYMs

rancid

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM?:

In Response to Re: Did i shove too early in this DYM? : I'm glad you agree with the call in this spot : ) I still think fold is better than shove though as this type of oppo has SO many hands that he calls with that we are only 60% against. But i deffo agree that shove is better than raise. IMO     Call />Fold />Shove />Raise
Posted by Poker_Fail

Basically hit flop or just get out of dodge
can't say this is bad, and probably is the easiest way to play it )

Just can't get my head around the concept of, even though we know we are ahead of oppo range here, we still decide to call and fold 2/3 flops when facing any kind of bet from oppo on flop, which obviously we will because oppo is a maniac who limps then goes mad )

so droll )

fun thread

BorinLoner

The information we have is that the opponent has been shoving since level 1 - Third post in the thread - so we can't make any assumptions about him being passive. Besides this, our problem is that, because we'll be first to act on the flop, we'll be forced to gamble whether our opponent has missed or no, on those 2/3 occasions that we miss. We'll have to lead out on KJ3 boards and cross our fingers that our opponent folds. That's a very -EV play, especially playing DYM's where half the field is paid and moreso in this spot, one elimination from getting paid.

The fold is definitely best against this player, then the shove. I wouldn't even contemplate limping or raising.