DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?

TWRAMYEP

I think if anyone dosnt get that KK in this spot is a fold, or close dosn't get DYMs as well as they think they do.

NColley

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

i used to work in a bookies for 5 years so i know everyting about maths lol and pot odds and implied odds 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Don't wanna burst your bubble or call you a liar or anything but I don't think I've ever see you reason or explain a decision on the posts you have made in the clinic using pot odds or maths just long winded statements describing situations and asking if you were right or wrong.

I hope that in the future you will show some of this knowledge...


I think this spot would be pretty close ICM wise, I close my eyes click shove and open again in 20 secs to see if I won!

TWRAMYEP

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : Don't wanna burst your bubble or call you a liar or anything but I don't think I've ever see you reason or explain a decision on the posts you have made in the clinic using pot odds or maths just long winded statements describing situations and asking if you were right or wrong. I hope that in the future you will show some of this knowledge... I think this spot would be pretty close ICM wise, I close my eyes click shove and open again in 20 secs to see if I won!
Posted by NColley

Agree it feeled close, for me it feeled a close fold, but its acualy a very very clear fold, wait for my pics to get approved ^^ to see ICM calcs.

NColley

Interesting, it still feels dirty if short stack doubles up and we end up losing!

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

I think if anyone dosnt get that KK in this spot is a fold, dosn't get DYMs as well as they think they do.
Posted by TWRAMYEP

I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 85% of the time, and then fold into the money.

However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better.

TWRAMYEP

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 90% of the time, and then fold into the money. However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better.
Posted by EvilPingu

The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove
Posted by TWRAMYEP

But surely the looser he's calling, the worse his range plays against our KK, and the more likely he is to double us up and we can then fold into the money. Also, and this is why I'm re-shoving here, the looser he's calling, the more likely he is to double up the short stack which puts us in danger - Therefore, the looser he's making this play, the more we should be re-shoving?

I may be wrong, but I don't really want him to double up the shortie a large % of the time, then we're in danger and have to shove in worse spots than this one.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : I disagree - For me, it depends on what the big stack is doing. As I said earlier, if he's raise/calling with junk just to try and bust someone and finish the game quickly, I think it's better to re-shove otherwise he'll most likely double up the short stack, and all of a sudden, you're a short stack. You're not going to get a better spot than KK vs. probably 2 under cards, so I'd take it, double up, like, 85% of the time, and then fold into the money. However, against a good player who knows what they're doing in DYM's, you're only going to be against pocket pairs or Ax here, you're probably only about 70-75% against that range if you get called, so I think in that case, folding is better.
Posted by EvilPingu

IMO if you have a stack that big you should be raising or shoving nearly every hand, regardless of your cards, you should shove into the middle stacks BB every time, Especially if they are a solid reg (Who WILL fold)

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : The problem with your logic is that the looser the big stack is calling us the worse it is for us to shove, regardless of how the big stack is calling unless he disconnects its bad for us to shove
Posted by TWRAMYEP

Surely that is correct for AK etc, but not for a made hand such as KK

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : Agree it feeled close, for me it feeled a close fold, but its acualy a very very clear fold, wait for my pics to get approved ^^ to see ICM calcs.
Posted by TWRAMYEP

Pics tend to take a lifetime to get approved, just "imageshack" them. <google it if your not sure what im on about.

TWRAMYEP

your equity difference may not be as bad as you think if small stack doubles up throw big stack.

before this hand:

Equity
-------

Hero: 27.47%
short: 15.46%
other: 24.49%
big: 32.43%

If short stack double up assuming the limper folds
---------------------------------------------------------

Hero: 24.88%
Short: 23.26%
other: 20.17%
big: 31.55%

so you only loose 2.59% equity if shorty doubles up

TWRAMYEP

WIZ
-----

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/100yd.png/
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8061/tight.png



Equity calcs
-------------

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/862/equitybefore.png/

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5783/equityafter.png

ciderhic

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

WIZ ----- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/100yd.png/ http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8061/tight.png Equity calcs ------------- http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/862/equitybefore.png/ http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/5783/equityafter.png
Posted by TWRAMYEP

Good work.

Whats that program you use to work out equity?

TWRAMYEP

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here?:

In Response to Re: DYM - KK, ever considering folding here? : Good work. Whats that program you use to work out equity?
Posted by ciderhic

I wrote it myself, its an equity calculator for DYMs. I will be growing it to a full ICM calculator if I have time/can be bothered.

cgoldie

A fold here is ok, but it depends a lot on your big stack and the limpers play. 

If you think the big stack is simply stealing and folding to a raise and the mid stack is just floating occasionally a shove is also ok. You have enough fold equity stack wise as you can damage the big stack and knock the mid stack out so they should be folding.

I would also argue a flat call is not terrible either. If you think your opponent is trying to get the short stack out and willing to check down a flop if the short goes in. If the short folds and the flop is low you could either check down or lead out. You lose some equity flatting, the short folds and you end up folding but not a massive amount.

It's a tough spot and I don't think there's a clear answer and the opponents general play counts for a lot.