NL10 - call or fold

rancid

no reads, opnions from pre plz

I check turn for value from Ax, rep a c/r flop w/FD by weakly checking turn
Are my lines really bad or ?
But I am also wary of AK/KK

Surely I have to call it off

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Rumpy	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.85
rancid	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.90
	Your hole cards	A 9
DTWBANDIT	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£13.45
Wolfie100	Raise		£0.30	£0.55	£13.11
potless40	Fold
vicarmani	Fold
Rumpy	Fold
rancid	Call		£0.20	£0.75	£9.70
DTWBANDIT	Call		£0.20	£0.95	£13.25
Flop
		2 A 9
rancid	Check
DTWBANDIT	Check
Wolfie100	Bet		£0.40	£1.35	£12.71
rancid	Raise		£1.28	£2.63	£8.42
DTWBANDIT	Fold
Wolfie100	Call		£0.88	£3.51	£11.83
Turn
		K
rancid	Check
Wolfie100	Bet		£1.50	£5.01	£10.33
rancid	Call		£1.50	£6.51	£6.92
River
		4
rancid	Check
Wolfie100	Bet		£6.51	£13.02	£3.82
rancid            ?

YOUNG_GUN

i shove get full value for when we are ahead

looks like cud be a cooler did he have ak? 

Dudeskin8

Fold pre, not gonna hit this hard too often so pretty sure it's a leak longterm unless you're gonna make moves when you miss.

Bet turn.

Shove river if bet turn, as played shove.

YOUNG_GUN

Dude seriously 20p extra ur folding lol must think outside the box mate!

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

Dude seriously 20p extra ur folding lol must think outside the box mate!
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

I was just about to edit my post saying YG/Pod will probz have a panick attack trying to reply to my post lol

Seriously though calling raises OOP with weak aces isn't going to be good long term, however if GT/LOL_RAISE etc come on and say it's a great idea I'll admit defeat

EDIT : Also even when you do hit like here you (Rancid) are still thinking about folding, just danny make sense full stop lol

YOUNG_GUN

if it was not suited then i dont mind the fold... obv im aware of the 2% diff with flush draw but its all about impllied odds folding is just unbelivably nitty

As played get in turn.

Once i flop 2 pair with flush draw out there im just gonna get in asap, rarely folding if i flop 2 pair anyhow unless theyre supper duper nit 

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

if it was not suited then i dont mind the fold... obv im aware of the 2% diff with flush draw but its all about impllied odds folding is just unbelivably nitty As played get in turn. Once i flop 2 pair with flush draw out there im just gonna get in asap, rarely folding if i flop 2 pair anyhow unless theyre supper duper nit 
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

The effective stack is just 100bbs, if it was like 200+ then that might be more relevent but not 100bbs imo, also you even state the fact yourself it makes 2% difference lolz.

Folding isn't nitty it's just being disciplined IMO.

YOUNG_GUN

no its disciplined if its not suited it is ridiculously nitty suited ace..

100 bb is enough to warrent the call, if it was under 40-50bb then it would be worse calling 

rancid

pre, it's soooted )

turn I am acting weak to rep a FD, so Ax should bet and they have = good - never folding )
But because K hits turn, like the worse card for my hand
When oppo fires river, I didn't expect that and makes me think I am behind
But because I checked turn oppo could be playing AQ/AJ this way even though a check here with AQ/AJ would be better :S or just a thin value bet
Surely oppo is not value betting worse than my holding

Dudeskin8

I guess a HUD is the only thing that would prove how good or bad pre over a BIG sample is, but with Sky not allowing it you have to just estimate what the EV is of calling OOP with A9s. 

Might be worth as a side note just recording how much you make on average calling OOP with marginal hands, KJ/A10/QJ suited or not.

YOUNG_GUN

zzzz did u say something dude, have a day of, are u trying to have massive nit image

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

zzzz did u say something dude, have a day of, are u trying to have massive nit image
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Wow I really annoy you don't I ? lol

Its funny though cus a similar thead came up about 2 months ago, I replied you, slated me as per, few hours later yb replied saying folding pre was right, go figure.

YOUNG_GUN

u can be quite tilting yer, im sure u dont play as abc as u post on here..

wow u was right or had similar views as a decent player 2 months ago bound to happen eventually u post enough :P 

its obv different opinions here so agree to disagree until more input then.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

u can be quite tilting yer, im sure u dont play as abc as u post on here.. wow u was right or had similar views as a decent player 2 months ago bound to happen eventually u post enough :P  its obv different opinions here so agree to disagree until more input then.
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

The thread is about NL10 which is possible to beat by playing ABC right? So that's the advice I give, not rocket science lol

Also you say 'think outside the box' earlier, if that refered to 3betting pre taking control putting other player in a bad spot (something I heard Luke Swartz chirp on about a lot and he ain't too bad) I'd agree with you but just stationing off and hoping to flop a 50-1 shot like here isn't fancy that's just bad lol 

Again though if you have a plan for when flop is J-8-3 etc then that's good too but you have to have that plan, OOP though most times it's gonna be check fold which isn't great, also even when you flop TP Ace you might end up folding if oppo fires 3 streets so reverse implied odds come into it.

davelufc

@Rancid, defo shove here. you cant expect much better on flop(except nut flush obv)

If you`ve run into a set/KK/35 then just ul.

Ps. I like young gun and i also like dudeskin8, but which is better,

There`s only one way to find out........................fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rancid

wow get a room guys, only 2% of my stack :S
As long as we play for trips/2 prs/FD's - why is this so bad

Am I seriously not playing tight enough


what range calls flop raise, which is not happy to stack on flop
how are we so sure our hand is good on turn

can we happily c/r turn knowing worse will call, if so what worse hands get it in on turn & river

also why are we shoving flop

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

@Rancid, defo shove here. you cant expect much better on flop(except nut flush obv) If you`ve run into a set/KK/35 then just ul. Ps. I like young gun and i also like dudeskin8, but which is better, There`s only one way to find out........................fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by davelufc

LOL proper hoping I draw him in Lamby's comp now

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

wow get a room guys, only 2% of my stack :S As long as we play for trips/2 prs/FD's - why is this so bad Am I seriously not playing tight enough
Posted by rancid

2pr is 50-1, trips not sure but it's got be more I'd imagine, FD you're always a dog to hit it so miss most times, unless you plan on c/r on flop.

Yes it's only 2% of stack but you're not playing this one hand then going to bed you're playing for like 3-4 hours so over that spell it adds up and becomes a leak.

rancid

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : 2pr is 50-1, trips not sure but it's got be more I'd imagine, FD you're always a dog to hit it so miss most times, unless you plan on c/r on flop. Yes it's only 2% of stack but you're not playing this one hand then going to bed you're playing for like 3-4 hours so over that spell it adds up and becomes a leak.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Only becomes a leak if your constantly making speculative calls but hey ho
If your folding these spots the majority then it's not that bad imo to call here, espcially with ep raise

But one thing I was 100% sure of, like I read you so well - I knew you would say fold pre )
But your not far wrong

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : Only becomes a leak if your constantly making speculative calls but hey ho If your folding these spots the majority then it's not that bad imo to call here, espcially with ep raise But one thing I was 100% sure of, like I read you so well - I knew you would say fold pre )
Posted by rancid

Wouldn't an EP raise make it MORE likely you're already behind as his range is presumably tighter or do you have reads he's a maniac ?

rancid

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : Wouldn't an EP raise make it MORE likely you're already behind as his range is presumably tighter or do you have reads he's a maniac ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

If we range ep raise as narrow then if we hit, we have more chance of getting paid
If maniac raises ep, then it becomes an ez fold

I know where I am when I call pre and know I am behind
To be frank, I feel very comfortable playing oop so if flop comes Ace high I feel I can play it ok

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : If we range ep raise as narrow then if we hit, we have more chance of getting paid If maniac raises ep, then it becomes an ez fold I know where I am when I call pre and know I am behind To be frank, I feel very comfortable playing oop so if flop comes Ace high I feel I can play it ok
Posted by rancid

Yeah IF you hit which isn't that often, surely you can understand that fact, and even when you do hit you end up levelling yourself into folding or considering it.

You know you're behind and yet still call, that logic doesn't make sense to me :S, if it was a small pair than fair play you could be behind but if hit set you know where you are.

On the Ace high flop it would be interesting to see how you play it and also how profitable you are .

rancid

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : Yeah IF you hit which isn't that often, surely you can understand that fact, and even when you do hit you end up levelling yourself into folding or considering it. You know you're behind and yet still call, that logic doesn't make sense to me :S, if it was a small pair than fair play you could be behind but if hit set you know where you are. On the Ace high flop it would be interesting to see how you play it and also how profitable you are .
Posted by Dudeskin8

If you play to hit a hand then your can't fold can you
The whole reason we play hands with implied odds is because we know we are behind and oppo has a hand they will stack with

Can we only win at poker by being the right side of super standard coolers :S

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : If you play to hit a hand then your can't fold can you The whole reason we play hands with implied odds is because we know we are behind and oppo has a hand they will stack with Can we only win at poker by being the right side of super standard coolers :S
Posted by rancid

I have no problem with getting it in here, doing anything but defies all logic for calling pre, if he has better say well done and move on.

We win by trying to make the game as easy as possible, putting other players under pressure etc, calling OOP with marginal holdings doesn't achieve that. 

How often do you see TommyD doing it? I'd wager never.

YOUNG_GUN

*bangs head against a brick wall*

rancid

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : I have no problem with getting it in here, doing anything but defies all logic for calling pre, if he has better say well done and move on. We win by trying to make the game as easy as possible, putting other players under pressure etc, calling OOP with marginal holdings doesn't achieve that.  How often do you see TommyD doing it? I'd wager never.
Posted by Dudeskin8

agree to disagree Dude ) again!

Gotta say though, you can be passive sometimes - does have benefits

NColley

Rather see a 3bet pre then a call but w/e.

As played, raise bigger on flop, bet turn - really no call for c/r flop and then checking turn since people will just check behind alot.

I'm never folding when I hit 2 pair with A9 unless the board counterfeits my 9, otherwise your only playing it to hit the flush and thats just silly.

grantorino

pre is marginal imo, I would prob call if limper likely to come along. Not a big fan of 3betting it here readless oop, cant see folding pre being bad either

flop good.

bet turn. I hate the check against an unknown with bad betsizing on what is basically a blank

As played shove river. You cant call pre for implied odds, flop two pair, check turn and river to induce then fold when you actually do induce

Also as an aside A9s is significantly better than A9o pre imo due to extra equity we have on some flops

rancid

result - sigh

		K
rancid	Check
Wolfie100	Bet		£1.50	£5.01	£10.33
rancid	Call		£1.50	£6.51	£6.92
River
		4
rancid	Check
Wolfie100	Bet		£6.51	£13.02	£3.82
rancid	Call		£6.51	£19.53	£0.41
Wolfie100	Show	K K
rancid	Muck	A 9
Wolfie100	Win	Three Kings	£18.13		£21.95

rancid

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

pre is marginal imo, I would prob call if limper likely to come along. Not a big fan of 3betting it here readless oop, cant see folding pre being bad either flop good. bet turn. I hate the check against an unknown with bad betsizing on what is basically a blank As played shove river. You cant call pre for implied odds, flop two pair, check turn and river to induce then fold when you actually do induce Also as an aside A9s is significantly better than A9o pre imo due to extra equity we have on some flops
Posted by grantorino

Why do we shove river, surely lets AQ/AJ fold
Surely induce to let AQ/AJ over value their hand
Only better calls our shove, or do we just lead turn and river hoping worse comes along - surely this only works versus stations
Given the fact oppo is random to me, how can I be sure oppo is bad

But if oppo does not hit turn & we check then oppo checks behind and we lose value on turn but we can still check turn and v/b river as worse will call but maybe not call two streets

or are we just fire fire fire -puure valoooooooooo because all oppo are bad )

grantorino

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold:

In Response to Re: NL10 - call or fold : Why do we shove river, surely lets AQ/AJ fold Surely induce to let AQ/AJ over value their hand Only better calls our shove, or do we just lead turn and river hoping worse comes along - surely this only works versus stations Given the fact oppo is random to me, how can I be sure oppo is bad But if oppo does not hit turn & we check then oppo checks behind and we lose value on turn but we can still check turn and v/b river as worse will call but maybe not call two streets or are we just fire fire fire -puure valoooooooooo because all oppo are bad )
Posted by rancid

I meant shove over river bet, although I doubt AQ folds to a lead ever, but yeah as played crai.

If you checked to induce why are you asking whether to call or fold

You cant be sure oppo is bad, but his betsizing is too small and its 10NL

Nearly every hand that checks behind turn and calls river will call turn bet and draws that check behind fold to river bet

Against an unknown yeah I would just keep firing for value cos people (good or bad) can call down with worse esp when draw misses