200NL 3bet pot

Poker_Fail

I see eddoeddo as being a fish, dunno much about pete, but Boonicon is obv a button warrior so I'm very happy to 3bet pre.

Should I lead out, check/call or check/raise on a flop like this?

I was torn between check/raise or a simple lead out (If so how much?)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Poker_Fail	Small blind		£1.00	£1.00	£197.00
s_half9	Big blind		£2.00	£3.00	£187.00
	Your hole cards	K Q
Pete852	Call		£2.00	£5.00	£118.85
eddoeddo	Call		£2.00	£7.00	£125.81
Boonicon	Raise		£10.00	£17.00	£456.45
Poker_Fail	Raise		£25.00	£42.00	£172.00
s_half9	Fold
Pete852	Call		£24.00	£66.00	£94.85
eddoeddo	Fold
Boonicon	Call		£16.00	£82.00	£440.45
Flop
		10 J K

scotty77

this is actually a pretty horrible board for your hand in a 3bet pot I think.

you have a hand that looks pretty big, but if you are ever getting in stacks here then you are probably gonna be behind.

I'd prob check/call....neverr check/jam I don't think....sometimes just bet/call it off.

Unknown

Weird spot, because if stacks go in your most likely vs a set or AQ.

Im not even certain I like c/c because when it 4straights you dont get much value from sets, and you lose your stack vs AQ when a 9 rolls off, plus your hand doesnt actually improve on a K turn.

Is c/rai too crazy to get KT/JT and sometimes KJ to b/f?  

jakally

In a 3 bet pot with the size of the pot already nearly half your stack, on that board, I am 100% of the time getting to showdown. (Therefore getting stacks in).

I don't see there are many/any hands that try and bluff into this, that don't call a bet, therefore I can't see the merit in check calling.

I think bet, call is probably the best line.

You are probably not far short of 50% versus a get-it-in range (TT-QQ, AJs-AQs, Kts+, QTs+, JTs, Th9h,Th8h, 9h8h, AJo - AQo, KTo+, JTo).

WHOAMI196

FWIW I would not 3-bet this hand v boonicon, he is deep and you are giving him 2.5-1 to call(if folded to him ovc), i presume he calls pretty wide here, so 3-bet-bigger imo its more profitable here if able to TID pf a higher % of the time.

Makes a difference that you have the qh, Im having a tough time deciding if c/c or b/c is best(or even b/f), if you bet you can put boonicon on a narrow range for sure, e.g he would unlikely flat with AQ(the board smashes you range so doubt you will get bluffed at). The fish is irrelivant because you are never folding v him. Overall i think you gain greater info, and value from betting this flop imo (lead ~50).

p.s if you lead and boonicon shoves just puke and consider folding.

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

In a 3 bet pot with the size of the pot already nearly half your stack, on that board, I am 100% of the time getting to showdown. (Therefore getting stacks in). I don't see there are many/any hands that try and bluff into this, that don't call a bet, therefore I can't see the merit in check calling. I think bet, call is probably the best line. You are probably not far short of 50% versus a get-it-in range (TT-QQ, AJs-AQs, Kts+, QTs+, JTs, Th9h,Th8h, 9h8h, AJo - AQo, KTo+, JTo).
Posted by jakally

what size do you think a lead-out should be?, it's obv a board where they could easily have 2 pair, yet even if they do I would have redraws to the straight. AQ is the only hand i'm dreading to be up against here?

Would most regs at this level be aggro with FD/FD+pair in Boonicon's spot if I bet?

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

Weird spot, because if stacks go in your most likely vs a set or AQ. Im not even certain I like c/c because when it 4straights you dont get much value from sets, and you lose your stack vs AQ when a 9 rolls off, plus your hand doesnt actually improve on a K turn. Is c/rai too crazy to get KT/JT and sometimes KJ to b/f?  
Posted by CoxyLboro

This is actualy a very interesting point that i was contemplating, this was my first ever session at 200NL, I've never played Boonicon before.

Does a reg assume I'm stronger or weaker than Crai portrays when I am completely unknown to him?

I had 3bet quite often to Boonicon's raises when I was OOP, does this mean he'd 4bet me with say 10s+ AK maybe even AQs? |Or does Pete's involvement change this?

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

this is actually a pretty horrible board for your hand in a 3bet pot I think. you have a hand that looks pretty big, but if you are ever getting in stacks here then you are probably gonna be behind. I'd prob check/call....neverr check/jam I don't think....sometimes just bet/call it off.
Posted by scotty77

If I led out would he never shove with a bare FD?

First session at this level so don't kill me if I'm being stoopid

scotty77

if you look at the board texture, and we have the Qh, its hard to see what FDs he could shove with bar maybe AThh.

also as itsa  3bet pot, it narrows your range so much that I doubt he would shove something like 78hh here as its so likely that you have hit some kind of that board, so he has litte FE, so I would prob expect a peel from a FD here, assuming what your bet is OTF ofc.

hurst05

pretty standard iso spot for boonicon, not that he needs an invite when hes on the button. so i think the combination of hands he could have here is pretty large. it isn't like we can narrow is range down much after the flop because of the 3rd party involved in the hand. hes gonna be raise/calling pre in this spot with 22-JJ (prolly 4bets QQ-AA/AK) any suited connectors/ suited gap connectors/ any2 picture card hands/ id also put hands like Ax suited in his range here to.

i would be bet/calling it off. he would jam alot of draws and we have a blocker to the straight draw and also the Qh for insurance if a heart rolls off on the turn. plus we have outs against alot of hands he can have here that he doesnt 4bet pre with.

hurst05

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

if you look at the board texture, and we have the Qh, its hard to see what FDs he could shove with bar maybe AThh. also as itsa  3bet pot, it narrows your range so much that I doubt he would shove something like 78hh here as its so likely that you have hit some kind of that board, so he has litte FE, so I would prob expect a peel from a FD here, assuming what your bet is OTF ofc.
Posted by scotty77

from past experience id feel confident in saying if he has any flush draw. hes gonna be playing it hard and fast. i cant see him flatting a draw because of the stack sizes and the fact that if he hits the turn it possibly kills the action from alot of hands.

Poker_Fail

I love the fact that you are all solid, big winning players and have different views, gotta love poker

Hopefully some other big guns will share their opinion too

IDONKCALLU

i am 100 percent leading this flop pete could easily of called with ace jack 99 etc i think your getting value betting 3 streets here plus u have alot of outs for a straight im never checking this flop im thinking of how i can get the max out of this hand if pete had aces or ace king dnt you think he would reraise your 4 bet ? he could have a set but chances are not likely 

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

i am 100 percent leading this flop pete could easily of called with ace jack 99 etc i think your getting value betting 3 streets here plus u have alot of outs for a straight im never checking this flop im thinking of how i can get the max out of this hand if pete had aces or ace king dnt you think he would reraise your 4 bet ? he could have a set but chances are not likely 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Given pot size there isn't gonna be 3 streets to bet

IDONKCALLU

i just think if your 4 betting with k q and hit this flop ya never folding its a dream flop for ya what else can u ask for i would be betting 50 into a 75 pot here and jam the turn if a non heart just an opinion might me bad play but thats what i would do 

NColley

Your 3 bet oop is way way too small, boonicon prob calls it with his entire iso range everytime purely because of the size.

When a 3 bettor check/raises me on boards like this I'm usually confused because it seems like a wierd line to take if they have the straight/set/2pair since they would just be giving me better odds to call if I had a draw. Then again I suppose this could be a good thing.

I think you have to lead, but I don't think your favourite alot of the time if you get put all in by boonicon.

LnarinOO

i dont know if it would be sick to c/raise this spot and make a semi range merge in the way of i know u dont get much worse to call but defo get better to fold..! 

suppose it depends on pete852's action/bet.. but could see this foldin alot of better hands in boonicon range thats beats us.. say pete bets £40, called by boonicon, we jam ??? could also depend on pot odds for boonicon he may jus click call .. 

if it did work pete may show up and get it in with worse alot

grantorino

why did u 3bet pre? I think I would usually prefer to flat in that situation. If you do 3bet make it bigger

I bet/call cos I think worse can call or raise and also Im an unimaginative sod with TPGK+OESD in a 3bet pot <100BB deep. Tough spot though

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

why did u 3bet pre? I think I would usually prefer to flat in that situation. If you do 3bet make it bigger I bet/call cos I think worse can call or raise and also Im an unimaginative sod with TPGK+OESD in a 3bet pot <100BB deep. Tough spot though
Posted by grantorino

Boon raising button there with any 2

IDONKCALLU

exactly i like the way u play it m8 i watch alot of cash tables on sky and boonicon raises any button u played it well m8 byt id still empty the clip on each street watching the hand now on 865 funny what pete has and boonicon 

rancid

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot : Boon raising button there with any 2
Posted by Poker_Fail

If boon is raising btn with a wide range and we 3 bet, which is fine I guess but I prefer to flat
When boon flats our 3 bet, what are we thinking
Is boon flatting with iso range, if so you gotta be good on flop

If boon has a value hand here, then I guess your in bad shape

But you gotta call it off f, b/c as whats said above boon is gonna play it hard and fast whatever the holding

IDONKCALLU

who says that u need cards to play poker

IDONKCALLU

rancid if u just flat boonicons raise tho your handing boonicon the initative in the hand and the lead in the hand and boonicon will fire all 3 streets and put poker _fail under maximum pressure i like the way fail has played it 

grantorino

just because he raises btn with any 2 doesnt always mean you should 3bet pre

3betting prob fine, but when you do it with KQ his calling range is much more important than his btn raising range. Flatting also may keep limpers in, and you dominate their ranges

rancid

Why 3 bet, is this for value versus boons perceived iso/calling range

Are we happy boon has called and if so, flop is good for us

Only holdings that give us action on flop are either ahead of us or worse such as draws
If we check will boon fire bluffs and/or draws, likely I guess

If we are 3 betting pre for value then surely we just b/c

checking flop may be a viable option but you may end up just paying off

good luck NL200 aye poker_fail - nice

rancid

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

rancid if u just flat boonicons raise tho your handing boonicon the initative in the hand and the lead in the hand and boonicon will fire all 3 streets and put poker _fail under maximum pressure i like the way fail has played it 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

This is fine if boon is raising btn w/ATC, we want boon to go aggro on us )
If our hand is bigger lets say QQ, do we 3 bet pre in this spot
Would we rarther 3 bet bluff solid with at least a reasonable holding rarther than 84o

Also depends if boon is aware PF may 3 bet light and does PF know that boon know this !

If we talking about no cards then we have to consider the meta between them, maybe there is none and if boon considers PF to be a random then PF needs to really consider boon's calling range here

in my humble opinion :S

IDONKCALLU

well poker fail is varely new on 200 nl i think so i dnt think boonicon knows much about poker fails play but im sure poker fail knows alot about boonicons play as hes been on the master cash tables alot on sky so i think fail has an edge in that hes seen alot of boonicon playing alot on these stakes 

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot:

In Response to Re: 200NL 3bet pot : This is fine if boon is raising btn w/ATC, we want boon to go aggro on us ) If our hand is bigger lets say QQ, do we 3 bet pre in this spot Would we rarther 3 bet bluff solid with at least a reasonable holding rarther than 84o Also depends if boon is aware PF may 3 bet light and does PF know that boon know this ! If we talking about no cards then we have to consider the meta between them, maybe there is none and if boon considers PF to be a random then PF needs to really consider boon's calling range here in my humble opinion :S
Posted by rancid

I had 3bet him often.

Remember the higher the stake the more aggro it becomes, if I'm not 3betting KQ pre OOP then it'll soon become bloody obvious I only ever do it with premiums (although I am still only taking a few shots - nothing regular yet)

Poker_Fail

OK guys, you may have seen the hand play out on the show, although there were some slightly differing opinions from the high stakes regs, 3 of them (and stu rutter) agreed with the lead out I made. Was half-pot the best size as Boonicon will think he has more FE leading to him shoving the drawing parts of his range?

Also how big should my 3bet pre have been? £25 was obv a bit small, £30 - 35??
Although, if I know Boon is doing this with a VERY wide range is there any merit for my small 3bet?

TommyD

I spoke with Fail about this hand while sharing a table last night.  My first reaction was to bet/get it in.  Against Boon's bet/call on the button range I think we're ok.  I like check/jam as well but Boon's easily good enough to sniff that one out with that board texture.  I'm not sure he has a stab with much worse than we have here, more likely to check it back which of course hurts our equity if the turn is a brick.

LOL_RAISE

if he checks back flop our equity should improve on a brick turn