MTT shove/fold/call

rancid

what u think

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancedeanom1245Small blind 600.00600.008502.50PJ122Big blind 1200.001800.0050031.25 Your hole cards1010   leefish05Fold    TIPTOPTIMCall 1200.003000.0019540.00macapacaFold    rancidRaise 3600.006600.0030665.75deanom1245All-in 8502.5015102.500.00PJ122Call 7902.5023005.0042128.75TIPTOPTIMFold    rancid

Glenelg

With one I'm shoving, with two I'm folding! 

AMYBR

totally read/dynamic dependant.

Dudeskin8

With just 25bb behind I like a reshove.

PJ looks weak just flatting for me but I would like to know if this is a BH as a LOT of bad players will station off here with lots of worse hands than you trying to 'take dat bounty' then make a terrible fold when another guy shoves over the top, or even better still call with their rag ace.

Overall totally depends on PJ and what reads you have on him as that's the big pot in this hand if you play. 

grantorino

all in, buy in to next tourney

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

With just 25bb behind I like a reshove. PJ looks weak just flatting for me but I would like to know if this is a BH as a LOT of bad players will station off here with lots of worse hands than you trying to 'take dat bounty' then make a terrible fold when another guy shoves over the top, or even better still call with their rag ace. Overall totally depends on PJ and what reads you have on him as that's the big pot in this hand if you play. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

Not a BH, £6000 open rebuy - rebuy/add on period is over

This hand is for chip lead, we are both top 5 out of 100 odd

Obviously happy calling 1st shove - when bb flats I suspect a big hand not a weak hand - at best I think I am facing AK here - is this bad thinking - don't see how oppo is ever weak flatting - no reads at all hence my post

Dudeskin8

I'd think he's raise again with a big hand, maybe AA if he knows you're aggro but tbh without reads I just shove and say well done if he's trapped me.

You say oppo never weak flatting but some people are really bad and don't realise you can shove over the top, in his head 'I just flat small shove, hand over wiiiii'.

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

I'd think he's raise again with a big hand, maybe AA if he knows you're aggro but tbh without reads I just shove and say well done if he's trapped me. You say oppo never weak flatting but some people are really bad and don't realise you can shove over the top, in his head 'I just flat small shove, hand over wiiiii'.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Hear what your saying but more often we are surely facing big prs looking to bring in the original raiser by flatting
If oppo iso shoves, then I probably snap )

Can't see 9's and below flatting, not seen anything to make me think oppo is bad you see
So best I am looking at is AK, so oppo range is weighted - yes ?

Given the situation and chip stacks, I am sure oppo turns over pairs that have me in very bad shape - maybe sometimes AK/AQ - not much else - essentially more hands beat me than not - should I gamble this spot ?

Dudeskin8

Also sometimes he may flat with hands that beat you JJ maybe QQ at a big push and then fold when you shove thinking you must be massive, this of course needs very good reads. Same for AK/AQ/AJ that you might not want to race against.

Still overall just shove, get it in, move ur stack in da MDL.

simonnatur

I agree it looks like you're often being kept in the hand by a big stack with a monster hand - he's seen a std btn open from you so is very unlikely to put you on a hand you can stackoff with. I'ld be tempted to call/reassess on the flop - though knowing that if undercards flop I may well go broke.

If flop comes AKx we can get away from hand without having taken what might have been a huge flip for the chip lead and still have a playable stack.

Very hard one without any reads.

percival09

I really don't mind either option, I can't ever fold 1010 here though so I call

Dudeskin8

Not sure call is an option, flop always gonna have overs and you could end up folding the best hand if he open shoves J/Q/K/A high flop.

25700 behind if call with same in the middle, gonna be tough playing poker there.

rancid

Is calling that bad, this was the flop - great flop for us - we can get em in right

Surely if we playing for a non J,Q,K,A flop then the hands we good against on the flop we also good pre flop - so why not get em in pre
All hands that beat us pre, still beat us

Is playing flop with same size stack behind as pot - bad ?

9 6 8

Dudeskin8

Results orientated poker FTW lol 

In pre always best imo.

If do call pre NEVER fold now, if you do you should fold pre.

AMYBR

Pretty much why I said read dynamic dependant.

Despite having almost direct odds (looks like 4900 into 23000 - factor in IO..myeh) to flat pre IP our decision is unlikely to get a whole lot easier through streets unless we flop 10high obv.

If we think we have best hand pre have to look to isolate likely flip with dead money in there.  Not sure where we are FEwise, looks like we have 23000 inton 27000?  Find these multiway sky spots difficult to untangle sometimes.

We simply wont get better pps to fold, but will squeeze out worse, Am not sure what range flat fols either, maybe AJAQ if we are lucky

I cant say what I do without dynamic at table. 

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

Pretty much why I said read dynamic dependant. Despite having almost direct odds (looks like 4900 into 23000 - factor in IO..myeh) to flat pre IP our decision is unlikely to get a whole lot easier through streets unless we flop 10high obv. If we think we have best hand pre have to look to isolate likely flip with dead money in there.  Not sure where we are FEwise, looks like we have 23000 inton 27000?  Find these multiway sky spots difficult to untangle sometimes. We simply wont get better pps to fold, but will squeeze out worse, Am not sure what range flat fols either, maybe AJAQ if we are lucky I cant say what I do without dynamic at table. 
Posted by AMYBR

No dynamic at all, pretty much a static table

But anyway, is there an argument for flatting these spot to deny oppo seeing turn & river if we say we against AK/AQ - but on the flip if we know we against AK/AQ then we want it all in pre to get full double up

9 high flop - doesn't mean we win pot anyway given sb shove


pants ain't it


think it's a shove or fold pre

but look at the price for calling against my possible equity versus oppo's range

I have to call !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also is there an argument for flatting here to deny AK/AQ there full equity of seeing five cards, all good they only see 3 and miss 2/3 flops

percival09

sorry, I didn't look properly, calling is quite bad, meh, read dependant on whether I'd shove or fold

rancid

Just to clarify we have no reads )

Gonna have to do this blind lolz


I'll reveal later what happened when I get back home this evening

AMYBR

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : No dynamic at all, pretty much a static table But anyway, is there an argument for flatting these spot to deny oppo seeing turn & river if we say we against AK/AQ - but on the flip if we know we against AK/AQ then we want it all in pre to get full double up 9 high flop - doesn't mean we win pot anyway given sb shove pants ain't it think it's a shove or fold pre but look at the price for calling against my possible equity versus oppo's range I have to call !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by rancid

Well said, this is something I've toyed with in the past, but we dont help ourselves over volume.  Mainly just lvl ourselves into being non believers even when paint comes.

But vs the paint range we suspect pre we are only ever flipping when we do elect to ship so we can hardly describe ourselves as extracting. 

For me PERSONALLY the only 2 factors that will count are:

1) (most importantly) FE vs suspect range.

2) Tournament stage in relation to stack.  I am happier to flip in some spots, even for Tlife wFE , than others based upon what the outcome of hand will mean to my overall tournament success.  What impact the eventual potsize will allow me to weild vs field/table.

PPl draw the line with funny hands that we just dont play well vs with 10's.

As you say we are likely flipping for main pot in any case, so just have to decide if we want to/can isolate flip with dead money.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : No dynamic at all, pretty much a static table But anyway, is there an argument for flatting these spot to deny oppo seeing turn & river if we say we against AK/AQ - but on the flip if we know we against AK/AQ then we want it all in pre to get full double up 9 high flop - doesn't mean we win pot anyway given sb shove pants ain't it think it's a shove or fold pre but look at the price for calling against my possible equity versus oppo's range I have to call !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also is there an argument for flatting here to deny AK/AQ there full equity of seeing five cards, all good they only see 3 and miss 2/3 flops
Posted by rancid

So what's the plan if the board comes 9-high? Are we shoving to get all the AQ type-hands to fold? So we're shoving to make our opponent fold a hand that has 6 outs against us? Doesn't sound too good to me. We're still going to stack off to over-pairs and lose all value against weaker hands. The Stop and Go  is not a play we should be making with value hands, it's a play we make as a bluff with no hand on a board of low cards. So if the flop comes 9 high and we have TT we shouldn't be thinking about getting players off two overs, we should be thinking how we're going to get more money out of them. If we're thinking of using the stop and go with a made hand, we're not thinking logically.

You make a fair point that if our opponent has two overs then he'll miss the flop 2/3 times. The problem is that with TT the flop will bring at least one overcard more than half the time. So when the flop comes King or Queen high are we really going to know where we are? Playing a big pot with second or third pair is going to be tricky.

So I don't like the call pre-flop. I think we either go with our hand here or we don't. Shove or fold. Readless (I love that word) I probably make the shove and if the BB has trapped me I tap the table and say "Well played, sir".

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : Hear what your saying but more often we are surely facing big prs looking to bring in the original raiser by flatting If oppo iso shoves, then I probably snap ) Posted by rancid

I'd take issue with this. There are alot more bad players out there than good ones.

beaneh

wager all your chips. stare the cold caller down. tell him you'll show if he folds. you know the usual gubbins.

then win a flip= profits.

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

wager all your chips. stare the cold caller down. tell him you'll show if he folds. you know the usual gubbins. then win a flip= profits.
Posted by beaneh

I folded, thought I had zero FE and I just thought I was in bad shape & didn't fancy for what I thought was a flip at best for the chip lead

Then I run around the room hitting myself in the face for such a bad fold

Then I thought maybe it was ok

Then I convinced myself it was

Then I posted this fred

Then thought I should have shoved

& folded

& called

Now I am still not sure


lolz poker

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
deanom1245	Small blind		600.00	600.00	8502.50
PJ122	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	50031.25
	Your hole cards	10 10
leefish05	Fold
TIPTOPTIM	Call		1200.00	3000.00	19540.00
macapaca	Fold
rancid	Raise		3600.00	6600.00	30665.75
deanom1245	All-in		8502.50	15102.50	0.00
PJ122	Call		7902.50	23005.00	42128.75
TIPTOPTIM	Fold
rancid	Fold
deanom1245	Show	4 A
PJ122	Show	A K
Flop
		9 6 8
Turn
		3
River
		J
PJ122	Win	Ace high	23005.00		65133.75

AMYBR

result doesnt matter.  You knew what you were doing, stick with the conviction

beaneh

The only part of the result that matters is that your oppo did the flat call with AK. we should learn from that in terms of how to play him in the future.

the fact ak bricks this time should be of no consequence it's all about the equities.

The initial raise can be smaller too imo.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

The only part of the result that matters is that your oppo did the flat call with AK. we should learn from that in terms of how to play him in the future. the fact ak bricks this time should be of no consequence it's all about the equities. The initial raise can be smaller too imo.
Posted by beaneh

With the limpage?  Question, not looking for an argument today............

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

The only part of the result that matters is that your oppo did the flat call with AK. we should learn from that in terms of how to play him in the future. the fact ak bricks this time should be of no consequence it's all about the equities. The initial raise can be smaller too imo.
Posted by beaneh

Yep

& "The initial raise can be smaller too imo."

really, with the limper I thought I'd step it up a bit from the standard min raise
Thinking up it a bit if limper & if we are oop - UTG for example - is this correct for MTT

beaneh

how much of a difference is there in a 2x to a 3x after a limper, when all effective stacks are so short?

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

how much of a difference is there in a 2x to a 3x after a limper, when all effective stacks are so short?
Posted by beaneh

I see - but raising less does this not give a better price to players behind to call and also when it comes back round to the limper then the price is even better if I get a call behind -

Is my thinking off here - set me straight plz

Dudeskin8

As he's so short any call he makes pre OOP is gonna be be pretty horrific so yeah 2x is fine.

Also you have Btn so have power through hand.

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : I see - but raising less does this not give a better price to players behind to call and also when it comes back round to the limper then the price is even better if I get a call behind - Is my thinking off here - set me straight plz
Posted by rancid

yes it gives a better price, but if they are already drawing at a relative long shot, increasing their implied odds by a small fraction is meaningless. by reducing the size of our isolation raise we have to have them fold less often preflop for the raise to be intrinsically profitable regardless of whether we have a hand. When we do have a hand it's just fun times.