MTT shove/fold/call

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : yes it gives a better price, but if they are already drawing at a relative long shot, increasing their implied odds by a small fraction is meaningless. by reducing the size of our isolation raise we have to have them fold less often preflop for the raise to be intrinsically profitable regardless of whether we have a hand. When we do have a hand it's just fun times.
Posted by beaneh

Yeah makes sense, so even with limper we keep our standard raise size the same ?

Do we not adjust size of raise relative to position and/or  any limpers like in cash ?

Something I am struggling with cause while keeping raise sizes small and the same for balance and keeping it profitable in the way you explain above puts me in spots where I am not sure how much to raise.

So example - been opening a bit with min raises from mp - late positions and generally picking it up easily or getting resistance and then just letting go
Then I look down at AA UTG, feel I should just min raise - but think emmm need to bump it up
kinda caught in this dilema - help

beaneh

if you are playing cash you have 100bb

so 3x compared to 2x helps build the pot, gives people a worse price on their initial call etc

in tournaments if we are deep we have 40 bb lol

so 2x now seems big if we are looking for implied odds etc so the difference between 3x and 2x shallow is much greater than when deepstacked at cash.

Raise the same with Aces as you would when you happen to open K2s KJo 44 96o. Against people who wont notice you 2x everyhand make it 72x with dem aces innit

rancid

YA YA YA

sometimes get my cash play mixed up with MTT play and vice versa

Note to self: Effective stack! WORD!

AMYBR

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

how much of a difference is there in a 2x to a 3x after a limper, when all effective stacks are so short?
Posted by beaneh

GTBH didnt really fully agree with this @ time but didnt feel like getting into a pleasant debate about it

Logic was:  Surely we are virtually always inviting BB & limper into 3 way pot post, where we now have to get our hand through two opponents, albeit IP.

Have toyed with it over last week as have been fortunate enough to be going deep in a few MTT's (but logic seems to work just aswell in shallow end of S+G).  Previously would have made raise to 3 - 3.5x with limpage - whether just punting to isolate limper IP or with a real hand.

Dropped it down to my mostly standard 2.2ishx (as you lay out) with limpage and works out pretty much exactly the same, but giving us alot of benefits pre & post.  Same ranges of hands ship on us - losing less when weak,  & inducing action when we want it, but helping us maintain the image we want also. 

We know we are just going for value or looking to pick pot up IP on a later street vs c/f'er.  So we dont chase out value when strong + get hands through cheaper when weak, while also opening up windows of opportunity for ourselves  But being indistinguishable to oppos

So grudgingly have to say "TY" to beaneh..........................SIGH.................................

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : GTBH didnt really fully agree with this @ time but didnt feel like getting into a pleasant debate about it Logic was:  Surely we are virtually always inviting BB & limper into 3 way pot post, where we now have to get our hand through two opponents, albeit IP. Have toyed with it over last week as have been fortunate enough to be going deep in a few MTT's (but logic seems to work just aswell in shallow end of S+G).  Previously would have made raise to 3 - 3.5x with limpage - whether just punting to isolate limper IP or with a real hand. Dropped it down to my mostly standard 2.2ishx (as you lay out) with limpage and works out pretty much exactly the same, but giving us alot of benefits pre & post.  Same ranges of hands ship on us - losing less when weak,  & inducing action when we want it, but helping us maintain the image we want also.  We know we are just going for value or looking to pick pot up IP on a later street vs c/f'er.  So we dont chase out value when strong + get hands through cheaper when weak, while also opening up windows of opportunity for ourselves  But being indistinguishable to oppos So grudgingly have to say "TY" to beaneh..........................SIGH.................................
Posted by AMYBR

lol why so begruding? because it's me or because you don't like being wrong.

AMYBR

Well... because its you obv lol.

Have never minded being wrong.

But hey-ho, was happy enough to go off and experiment with it and then comment

pod1

"spring is in the air" i see little green shoots of a relationship between amybr and beaneh!! do i need to buy a new hat ??????

AMYBR

Myeh mayb olive branch @ best

Actually though beaneh's account had been hacked this week..........

More and more I toy with the approach more I see the benefits tbh.

It just boils down to the fact that the more confident/aggressive plyers will be giving themselves even more opportunities to take pots down with minimal/less risk - when both shallow & deep.  Am ridic aggro in LP anyway online, it is just is helping me stimulate action & reduce spewage.  Pretty much going to be playing 58 as KK stacked/ not stacked in LP...myeh maybe early pos based on table.

True we are giving oppos more favourable price to get involved, but same spectrum of players would get involved even without favourable odds with same ranges of hands.  Scaled down pot size = lower cbet/vb.  Lower vb isnt essentialy a bad thing in terms of oppos perception of our FE either and multiple streets of value.

Going to put it to work in a few live MTTs this week also

beaneh

why did you think I was hacked?

AMYBR

"......................................................................"

AMYBR

@ Beaneh:

Working this into my game and am seeing alot of immediate benefits.

Have to ask...

When laying this out origonally were you mainly talking of shallow stacks primarily?  Am using it both deep and shallow (once blinds are at a reasonable level) it working great in both.

Any particular spots/player types where we take back up to a 3 />x amount - other than to just mix it up?

Reason I ask is, for me, the benefit is mostly disguising my range & allowing me to play more pots both in and out of pos vs players who I feel have edge over postflop, but obv steering clear of tricky stack sizes.  So on occassion feel like I maybe want to build a bigger pot pre, but we are obviously giving off something if we begin to alter our pf bet sizing.....or do we just make a concious effort to balance this with relative/effective stacks?

TY

EDIT:  Guess am asking in what scenarios would you advocate altering the line, if any?

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

@ Beaneh: Working this into my game and am seeing alot of immediate benefits. Have to ask... When laying this out origonally were you mainly talking of shallow stacks primarily?  Am using it both deep and shallow (once blinds are at a reasonable level) it working great in both. Any particular spots/player types where we take back up to a 3 />x amount - other than to just mix it up? Reason I ask is, for me, the benefit is mostly disguising my range & allowing me to play more pots both in and out of pos vs players who I feel have edge over postflop, but obv steering clear of tricky stack sizes.  So on occassion feel like I maybe want to build a bigger pot pre, but we are obviously giving off something if we begin to alter our pf bet sizing.....or do we just make a concious effort to balance this with relative/effective stacks? TY EDIT:  Guess am asking in what scenarios would you advocate altering the line, if any?
Posted by AMYBR

nearly all tournament situtions apart from the first few levels are shallow stacked so yes just talking about tournies mainly.

basing a change in size on stack size is more acceptable than relating it to hand strength. 

I would advocate a larger raise size is you are going to be oop to the worlds elite.

AMYBR

Lol ok ty.

Really has been a great tweak in my game, thankyou.

GL on thursday, will hunt you down and buy you a lemonade.

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : nearly all tournament situtions apart from the first few levels are shallow stacked so yes just talking about tournies mainly. basing a change in size on stack size is more acceptable than relating it to hand strength.  I would advocate a larger raise size is you are going to be oop to the worlds elite.
Posted by beaneh

Intresting comment but surely we charge em to play position on us - does it really matter if they are not the worlds elite _)

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : Intresting comment but surely we charge em to play position on us - does it really matter if they are not the worlds elite _)
Posted by rancid

put it this way

you're on the button on two tables and you hvae Dohhhh in the bb on one and Ivey in the bb on the other.

who are you more happy to see a flop with, who is going to outplay you the least.

by raising smaller you leave space for more decisions and also for you to be outplayed. 

imo just jam into ivey and be like fufufu find a hand lol

pod1

 im on ebay now picking out me hat!!! :-) aymbr +beaneh on there first date on thurs and like a gentleman he aint trying to get him p iss ed :-)

AMYBR

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call : put it this way you're on the button on two tables and you hvae Dohhhh in the bb on one and Ivey in the bb on the other. who are you more happy to see a flop with, who is going to outplay you the least. by raising smaller you leave space for more decisions and also for you to be outplayed.  imo just jam into ivey and be like fufufu find a hand lol
Posted by beaneh

Pmsl @ this

AMYBR

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

 im on ebay now picking out me hat!!! :-) aymbr +beaneh on there first date on thurs and like a gentleman he aint trying to get him p iss ed :-)
Posted by pod1

You in dayynger poddy

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT shove/fold/call:

 im on ebay now picking out me hat!!! :-) aymbr +beaneh on there first date on thurs and like a gentleman he aint trying to get him p iss ed :-)
Posted by pod1

ya i'm getting scared. feel the need for a rude sarcy post to get us back on track :-p

pod1

pod1

never met you 2 guys but this is how i see you now :-)

AMYBR

Who is the cub/bear? :P

In seriousness the advice from beaneh has been the most drastic improvment to my game in...well along time.

Would recommend any MTT regs to read and experiment with.