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some feedback on all streets, please.
Im was on the table and it was just one of them hands! Only way i think you win is if you shove all in when he re raises you on the flop to make him fold and then he might not of? Oh and if any other club comes on the river
Id put him on 2 pair K & 10's so now way am i folding Nut flush here
Id put him on 2 pair K & 10's so now way am i folding Nut flush here
Comments
On the flop maybe my sizing could be a little bigger. Given the odds of a call from the 3bet and the implied odds i call.
On the turn i was given 2-1 on my money (i.e. 33% chance) i also have 3 non club queens and 9 clubs to hit (i.e. a 26% chance of hitting on the river) i appreciate a K or 10 of clubs could be a disaster card, but the huge implied odds of a non club queen hitting must outweigh this (given i would have gone for the check raise and probably got full stack). So, say in this example i have 20% equity on the turn, i would need the pot to be in excess of £4.68 which is easily plausible and more given the stacks behind (but in reality my equity is much higher, so would bring this down)
enough of the maths and onto the river, bingo! i hit a club, but realise its one of those dangerous board pairing clubs. Is this a crying call? it looks very much like a value town type bet with the boat to me, but surely i can't lay down the nut flush here? or are there just so little hands that do this that i beat?
I had K10s and the only reason i even played the hand was because of my position.
My reraise on the flop was to enable me to protect against flush draws and to try and get a check from you on the turn, which you did (just incase it was a brick for me, i'd then get to see the river for free).
To be honest i would have played this a lot tighter against a bad opponent but because i know that you try to think about the game i knew that i had room for some moves and to be honest was just luck to hit the third 10.
Also i can't say about the maths because i'm a bit maths-dyslexic (that it definitely not a real term) and tend to think about poker in a different way where i just try to sense out the information rather than thinking in odds and things.
fold on river, doubt oppo is betting one pr hands- oppo shouldn't but doesn't mean oppo won't :S
bets half your stack so lol he wants anything he can get
call or fold
foldage 4 da win
edit: lol just seen the spoiler above - thanks pip
On table selecting it was late at night so there was only 5-6 tables at NL4, otherwise i'd be staying well clear. I didn't ever put him on 22/33 because of his raise sizing on the flop and turn bet sizing, surely pip would bet much more on the turn with a set. Looking back K10 looks like the only likely hand here (which is what he had), surely i can't be scared of one hand expecially when he could be trying to take me of the pot, and i wasn't convinced he would raise flop with K10.
TBH i expected him to be turning up with a few bluffs in this spot, maybe i was overthinking it!
Maybe, at a push he could have had KQs and was firing with TP and flush draw?
Surely, you can't check behind?
No way on earth should you check it over, losing value
Conversely, imagine the same situation but i check to Pip on the river. Think of the range of cards i get a bet on the end from and possibly even full stacks (i.e. 2 pair hands, sets, bluffs) So the same hands plus many more pay me of the £2, not to mention the possibility of the full fiver.
Lets be honest, the hands that flat a donk lead are probably most the time paying of a check raise too. Increasing my value!
Surely my thinking here is correct Rancid.
Unless oppo b/f £1, oppo is not b/f £2.50 against your stack
versus oppo range your losing value by not beting, by checking you have to put bluffs in oppo's range a high percentage of the time
oppo will more likely call £2, or may even call a shove looking like a missed FD repping SD
bet your hands dude, don't hope someone does it for you
in this situation it's clear oppo has some kind of hand that you can v/b against IF you hit the nut straight
Obviously there are certain situations where you can check it over expecting a bet and value raise or just call but this isn't one of them - your hand is too big to check over - UNLESS you know oppo will put in such a thin v/b and wil call a raise :S
Given that pip is a thinking player then what does pip put swog on to then think the bet would get called
we are only talking about a set over set thin v/b here surely, swog would fold all one pair hands
So what would pip get value out of - mmmm nothing :S
ok it's turning into a bit of a ramble ..........
I was sure of this because i raised him on the flop knowing that if he missed on the turn he would attempt to check it to see the river for free, which in turn also gave me a chance to see the river free if i needed to. Once my 2 pair came though i was only ever going to value bet the river if it paired or check behind (if allowed) if it didn't improve me.
I think it boils down to position ultimately because i wouldn't have even played the hand out of position if facing a pre flop raise.
Anyway luckily for you it came runner runner 10s for you. I was really expecting you to show a bluff, you rather had K10 or nothing (doubt you would flat 33/22 pre) and how could i put you on that very hand, given your line.
If i'm making you pay, i want you to give me your money. Knowing you're decent why would i give you extremely poor odds to call with massive overbets? A fish would pay these prices but i didn't think you would so i raised what i thought i could get out of you. This and the fact that i wasn't actually sure my hand was even good until the turn (at which point i knew i was winning) means i was protecting my own hand with my flop play as explained above. At this level i don't think about my 'line' too much because 99% of people don't know anything about anything. (as Dudeskin once put it 'the people at NL4 know less than nothing') So in this instance, i tried to protect my hand by reraising you on the turn, which i succeeded in doing because i could have seen the river for free by using my position, and after that i value bet (to me 'value bet' means i raised what i thought you'd pay). I'm really not qualified or experienced enough to take a preemptive 'line' so i'm just explaining what my thought process was. My flop raise caused you to go from leading out on the flop to checking on the turn, whilst also building a pot in which i was fairly certain i was ahead, and allowing me to see the river for free if i felt i needed it.
I think i used my position really well here. Whether it's 'right' long term or whatever i can't say because i'm a newcomer to the game and am still learning all the ropes. Not really lucky for me, more like unlucky for you that you didn't make a hand. I had the best hand on the flop and the best hand on the turn and river.
I also think flatting with a pocket pair is a completely standard play at these levels.
I would say my mistake in the hand was the river bet. I put you on a straight or flush and when one or the other came in i should have gone for full stack, but it was late and i was sleepy so i'm sticking to that excuse!
Anyway, as i said before nice hand. With poker i don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong play in some circumstances, thats why many players enjoy the game so much.
Good luck on the tables and developing your game.
My maths may be way out but isn't the turn call -EV by about 6%?
Calling for 33% of the pot but with only 27%ish chance of catching? Although there is that thing called implied odds which i don't really 'get'.
I REALLY need to understand the maths better.
so given its a 3-1 chance to hit, i need to be certain of getting paid in excess of 3-1 on my turn call.
The funny thing is if you make your turn bet 60%+ pot then i fold turn right away.
You have to realise though i was 20% playing the board and 80% playing the player. Cards and odds and everything don't matter when i knew from his previous play at the table that my flop raise would prevent him from barrelling the turn and allow me to get the river dirt cheap if i needed it.
I KNEW he wouldn't 3-bet the flop so i don't see how my raise can be wrong. A lot of people would have shoved there given the odds but my read was that he wouldn't.
you want him to barrel the turn if he is bluff/semi bluffing
it is highly exploitable to be raise/folding tpgk here