NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots

TommyD

Got another odd spot for you to look at.  I try to only post interesting hands, I feel this one falls into that category.

Both Player 1 and Player 2 are much better than me.  I rate them as two of the best cash players on the site.  Player 2 is more loose aggressive than Player 1, but they are both capable of taking very strong lines with marginal holdings if they sense the time is right.  Player 2 is more likely to get stubborn in a pot that Player 1.  If you know your Top Gun, Player 1 is Iceman and Player 2 is Maverick.  Sadly that makes me Goose.

Tons of history between the three of us, both players more than capable of raising or check raising with air.

Planning to release this in stages, first up to the flop.

What next?  By the way, I am never folding.  If someone has flatted pre with KK then so be it.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jakally	Small blind		£1.50	£1.50	£1260.77
Player 1	Big blind		£3.00	£4.50	£663.60
style2737	Sit out
	Your hole cards	6 6
TommyD	Raise		£9.00	£13.50	£676.29
Player 2	Call		£9.00	£22.50	£607.50
jakally	Fold
Player 1	Call		£6.00	£28.50	£657.60
Flop
		K 6 4
Player 1	Check
TommyD	Bet		£15.00	£43.50	£661.29
Player 2	Raise		£48.00	£91.50	£559.50
Player 1	Raise		£99.00	£190.50	£558.60
TommyD	?

Hand History #523083015 (that bit is for me for the next bit).

rancid

love these hands Tommy !

no idea m8 - )



flat is good, not sure what to do on blank turn though - have a think about that one :S

EvilPingu

In Response to NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

Both Player 1 and Player 2 are much better than me.  I rate them as two of the best cash players on the site.
Posted by TommyD

I think the correct play in this spot is to click the "Stand" button :P

KAM99

Certainly took off on the flop huh. Could be anything with them on PP 44, ak, flush draw or even the straight+flush draw if the loose guy is playing some suited semi connectors. AK would seem a little off as would have expected a reraise preflop, but hey not always I guess, and same with KK. Guess either flat or reraise works depending if you want to check a turn for a diamond before getting it in. Personally as you said I'm not folding this right now I I likely 5bet even if it is super strong, as I'm quite happy to get it all in here if need be, even 200bb deep.

richtea

Tank then put in a meaty 4-bet, and be very happy to get it all in.

Curt360x27

I think you should just try get the money in here and dodge some bullets.
I think a big part of player 2 range is 44's as you say he is loose aggro but only called on his button. I expect him to know your gonna be raiseing a lot from the cut off, so he will be 3 betting a huge part of his range apart from low pairs. I suppose its feasible for him to flat with KK (he could also do this with AA) knowing your cut off range is pretty wide and he's just gonna fold you out a lot.
As for player 1 he's never flatting KK in the BB and I think he's got a big draw or an unlikely 64.

WHOAMI196

if i had 44 i would be concerned, but would be pretty happy in this spot wit 66, flatting has its merrits, other than a diamond there's not a lot of cards that would be a scare and could induce a spazzz or a weak overcall from player 2,

 but overall i think raising is best, sizing would depend on whatever i felt would be perceived as weakest or the biggest chance of getting action, for some bizzare reason i fancy a shove! but 200bb maybe too much lol and would depend on dynamics, so i would 4-bet to £220, who knows what i would do in game though! villain dependant, and how they perceive me would be a factor in the decision making, their hand range would come in to play too.

sikas

ship da loot!

nh, gg

GELDY

best get it in while they are so enthusiastic about raising

scotty77

this is really really tough

like we're pretty deep that even if we ship player 1 can find a fold with Axdd...maybe even 57dd assuming that hsi FD maye dead.

whatever we do just screams massive

I think I may flat and hope that player 2 has 44 and decides to do the punting for us....

BorinLoner

I always say shove, so I'm saying shove again.

Can't think of a way to convince them you're weak here... although maybe if you click it back you might level them a bit. It's a longshot but I can think of nothing else. If you're never folding then it probably won't hurt.

I just shove and sit back with my feet up.

TommyD

Thank you all for the replies so far.

The problem is pretty clear, I always look huge.  I like to always have some air in my range when I have a monster, the problem here is as much as I like to believe I can pull off any move at any time, I just have no air here if I 4bet.  I really don't think I would be 4betting these two players light on a flop ever.  Not only that, you can eliminate plenty of hands I was betting the flop for value with if I 4bet.  To make matters worse both players would be capable of folding 44 here.

Then again to 4bet allows both players to make a mistake or to get stubborn the next time it comes round to them.  Less likely from these guys I admit but no one is infallible.  Geldy mentioned the raising mood, I am a believer, mostly in heads up pots, that if you can get a betting rhythm going people are more likely to get money in and as such more likely to make a mistake.  Tricky here though.

I'll be posting the flop tomorrow/tonight now.  So yes I don't shove.

FWIW, as bad as it is to narrow a player's range down as thin as this, when it came back to me I had Player 1 on 44 in game.  I also thought that Player 2 was possibly light in this spot at that point.

IDONKCALLU

i add my 2 pence worth id raise to about 230 ish then shove on a non diamond turn 

The_Don90

What do people consider about flatting here?

I know its probably not the ideal line but if we flat we obv still look strong but maybe not as strong (maybe im dellussional). hmmm.

The biggest issue im seeing in regards to both players folding 44 is simply we dont have enough two pair combos in our range if we 4bet. If any. 64s maybe in tommys range but i doupt it from UTG. K6/K4 both unlikley so if we 4bet we're suddenly polarized to KK/66/44/56dd???AQdd??? so if we then consider player 1 had 44 example he suddenly can say well i can narrow that range down further because we hold 44. That probably makes 44 a fold. Player 2 in same spot can probably doing the same. Maybe flatting would allow hads such as AdKx or QJdd (do we fish QJdd here) or AQdd/56dd to make up a stronger part of our range. Maybe other AK combos. Im assusiming KQ and worse we're folding.

???? hands - would tommy 4bet these hand here?

Interesting hand again tommy.

simonnatur

So all you need to know is, how do i stack one or ideally two opponents who are good enough to fold btm set on a drawy board, whilst protecting my hand and not appearing ridiculously strong????   errrmmm  pass

Given you're never folding I'ld have to raise to £250 ish here, whole different ballgame playing this deep isnt it.

Ideally run like TommyD and river quads.

simonnatur

btw.. if this was NL20 player 1's checkraise sizing would scream a set of 4's at me - but God knows what it might mean here. 

LOL_RAISE

i liked the way you played the flop. unsure about turn though

TommyD

Ok to the turn

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jakally	Small blind		£1.50	£1.50	£1260.77
Player 1	Big blind		£3.00	£4.50	£663.60
style2737	Sit out
	Your hole cards	6 6
TommyD	Raise		£9.00	£13.50	£676.29
Player 2	Call		£9.00	£22.50	£607.50
jakally	Fold
Player 1	Call		£6.00	£28.50	£657.60
Flop
		K 6 4
Player 1	Check
TommyD	Bet		£15.00	£43.50	£661.29
Player 2	Raise		£48.00	£91.50	£559.50
Player 1	Raise		£99.00	£190.50	£558.60
TommyD	Call		£84.00	£274.50	£577.29
Player 2	Call		£51.00	£325.50	£508.50
Turn
		5
Player 1	Check
TommyD	?

So we call, the button doesn't squeeze but does come along.  The turn brings a naughty little card, we now have two flush draws on board and three running cards.  Now the Player who just check/raise 3bet into two players checks, giving up the betting lead.  What do we do?  Are we chancing a check or is it time to put money in the middle?

AMYBR

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

Tank then put in a meaty 4-bet, and be very happy to get it all in.
Posted by richtea

This.

Flatting is too strong a line and we simply dont want draws to improve effectively for free.  If we flat & check turn OOP I just cant see them firing.

Hope your up against Pr + FD and look to get it in.  Commiting 4bet ftw, I think its doubtful you'll get action on the turn when you flat and your going to be pretty annoyed if you let a draw get there without charging.

P M S L @ Goose EDIT:  Hadnt seen you'd updated with turn at time of post fwiw)

jakally

I think whatever you do here, against good players, you turn your hand virtually face up.

It's unlikely you continue with any 1 pair hand (given that you probably have to fold AK in this spot, and AK = AA here), and don't have many 2 pairs in your range.

I suppose you can flat, or raise, the NFD, and get sticky with Aces but not too much else, and the fact that we are not closing the action, would mean calling with a hand we can't continue with, if player 2 raises, is pretty spewy.

I think one question you can ask, is can you ever bluff raise this spot.

If the answer is no, you can never bluff raise this spot, as you will always get action, given what has already happened, then you should definitely raise.

(Posted this before turn show btw - this is in ref. to the flop spot)

WHOAMI196

LOL other than the diamond that's pretty much the second worst card, now you have to take lead IMO you cant allow a free card opportunity by checking, i would lead out big here seeing now that you are repping poss wider and so many draws out there, i think i would b/c at least 250, and see what happens.

KAM99

I don't see the turn as that naugthy given the action so far, and for me its fairly blank other than giving a second flush draw, and really can we see much more tahn AK hearts still in this hand? The only other hand we would have to consider still being in that the 5 helps is 78 of diamonds, as 23 diamonds is to loose to consider. Only other outside choices are 57 or 53, which again means its a fairly blank turn that hasn't really changed much.

So in answer to check or bet. I think with 3 to a straight and two flush draws I don't feel like checking again here against two players as played. Think its time to bet and if they fold so be it. Then hope I don't see a shove as that would suck having to call to see something like the 78. hehe

rancid

b/c 210

DOHHHHHHH

Turn is a blank surely?

I'd bet summat like £139 & prepare to shove the river!

4 would be a fun river card

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

Turn is a blank surely? I'd bet summat like £139 & prepare to shove the river! 4 would be a fun river card
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

In my eyes the 5h is good and a bad card but definitely not a blank imo, bad because it completes a few draws that player 1 could have in his range, again bad because a set of 44 looks a little worse to the holder possibly if its out there ovc, it also adds another flush to the mix, it may hit villains ranges although unlikely, it just means that we cant slow play or make a small bet to induce imo, the risk of being called and facing the prospects of an ugly river is too high so i prefer and possibly being forced to bet big and hope i get called and if i am beat so be it.

jams88

I have a question about the flop which may seem abit basic for the depth we are going into on this hand. If we had raised the flop and got faltted or raised again by player 2 does player 1 have the odds to call/shove if he has the NFD if he is getting 2:1 on his money?

The_Don90

Sigh eye eye


Bet just the right amount to make sure if they raise their commited to calling us. Anything £120 upwards probably achieves this, although id prefer 150-200 Too close to the pot we leave too much FE at the current stage but if we bet to small we dont kill their FE if they raise. So if we bet £150-£200ish their re-raise would be £300-£400 min allowing too litttle back to fold anything other than a bluff which i dont think they can have anymore.

GELDY

you checked on the flop to try to indicate lack of nut-ness

with the drawy board you want to try to feign a steal, and also you don't want, as you say, to face a tough river with made draws.

Shove, and hope someone reads it as a steal.

Worst case is they fold and at least you have protected your hand, and if they hit their draw c'est le poker.

Thanks for giving us an opportunity to discuss the hand, although a bit embarrasing to be commenting on your play.

KAM99

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

you checked on the flop to try to indicate lack of nut-ness with the drawy board you want to try to feign a steal, and also you don't want, as you say, to face a tough river with made draws. Shove, and hope someone reads it as a steal. Worst case is they fold and at least you have protected your hand, and if they hit their draw c'est le poker. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to discuss the hand, although a bit embarrasing to be commenting on your play.
Posted by GELDY

Board misread. Player one check, tommy Cbet, was 3bet and check raised with a 4bet by player one. Shove works I guess as one method, but against good players they would need a hand that likely beats us to call, as even 44 likely folds given action so far. Think I prefer betting out in the £150-£200 range and not folding. Each to their own though.

GELDY

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots : Board misread. Player one check, tommy Cbet, was 3bet and check raised with a 4bet by player one. Shove works I guess as one method, but against good players they would need a hand that likely beats us to call, as even 44 likely folds given action so far. Think I prefer betting out in the £150-£200 range and not folding. Each to their own though.
Posted by KAM99

I would have continued raising pf - the reason not to is to feign weakness (or at least lack of nut-ness). So how to continue with that theme? Checking risks the difficult river. That leaves a value bet or a shove. Based on TommyD's reads he has to decide which might be regarded as most flakey. My guess is that he has been known to shove with air on a wet board - and hence that move gives some possibility of working with the least worry about the river.

KAM99

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots:

In Response to Re: NL300 - A Set With Action In Two Spots : I would have continued raising pf - the reason not to is to feign weakness (or at least lack of nut-ness). So how to continue with that theme? Checking risks the difficult river. That leaves a value bet or a shove. Based on TommyD's reads he has to decide which might be regarded as most flakey. My guess is that he has been known to shove with air on a wet board - and hence that move gives some possibility of working with the least worry about the river.
Posted by GELDY

Maybe, though in some respects the call on the flop shows sometimes more strength than raising as you still have one peson to act that was happy to 3bet the flop, and could still reopen the betting. So sometimes that call on flop can look super strong. Part of the reason the hand is interesting. Not sure they would read the shove as a bluff that deep in most cases after the flop action in 3 way pot. Smaller bet can look a little blocking for a draw and my draw a reraise from someone that has made hand like 44, bt a shove would be a little tough to call with 44 i think.