Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than

kidwiz10

Hand History #524720341 (21:08 28/05/2012)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
paul10	Small blind		10.00	10.00	4270.00
DivsDreams	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4020.00
	Your hole cards	9 K
diamond81	Fold
TIMBER	Fold
ginjagaide	Fold
kidwiz10	Raise		80.00	110.00	3590.00
paul10	Fold
XXX	Raise		187.50	297.50	3832.50
kidwiz10	Call		127.50	425.00	3462.50
Flop
		Q 9 3
XXX	Bet		318.75	743.75	3513.75
kidwiz10	Call		318.75	1062.50	3143.75
Turn
		10
XXX	Bet		531.25	1593.75	2982.50
kidwiz10	Raise		1062.50	2656.25	2081.25
XXX	Call		531.25	3187.50	2451.25
River
		9
XXX	Check
kidwiz10	Bet		1180.00	4367.50	901.25
xxx	All-in		2451.25	6818.75	0.00
kidwiz10	All-in		901.25	7720.00	0.00
XXX	Unmatched bet		370.00	7350.00	370.00
DivsDreams	Show	Q A
kidwiz10	Show	9 K
kidwiz10	Win	Three 9s	7350.00		7350.00

Okay here goes this was the £110 £4k bh last night its the highest mtt ive ever played and to be honest it showed im not used to bigger blinds levels with more play to it.

Anyway this call might seem loose but with me bein the utter calling station that i am n aggro i tried out playing him but i got alot of abuse for this when i ended up winning the hand , but where im curious is my bad play actually bad? i put him on KK AA aq and when i min raise the turn is this such a bad play? as goin broke here with an alone pair so early on cant be too good right? i tried repping flush or at least the straight on turn but when he puts me on river after my lead out i was astonished to see what he had!

So would like some input on the hand please thx

grantorino

If you are readless,

Fold pre

Fold turn

Jam river

kidwiz10

Im never folding pre on the button k9 or not i no i got lucky but i had a plan to out play him , that turn was the perfect repping card and when i min raise turn i have to lead out river regardless of what comes , and to be honest i think a river value bet on river looks much stronger than a river shove in my case,  but thx for your input

Batkin88

If you put him on AA or KK he is likely to hold a big diamond so he aint folding the min raise and tbf when he doesnt put you in he only really holds AQ or KQ here tbh you got really lucky and was outplayed throughout until you hit the miracle 9 to allow you to get paid.
It is brave but in the end if the river comes any other card your losing alot of chips

AMYBR

balls + ego = spew :P  (kidding - myeh kind of lol)

Brag post?

How we feel (proceed) when we dont bink?  I suspect you lose too much of your stack in super marginal spot

I didnt see all the stuff under the hand til just now.  But all i could think was:  £110 BI, 4xs button & flats 3bet w K9o, stations 2nd pr.".  Am sorry but alot wrong there.

Nh though.

kidwiz10

Yea ppl will have difo inputs on this as i play cash im actually terrible with patience and i like to build pots! , but why im bringing this up even if he has AA without the dimond is him stacking off here bad play? as he can never be good on such a board like this so early on with ppl betting into the pre flop raiser then continuing every street in such an early level

Yes i got lucky but i was actually shocked to see he had called me down with aq ill class that as sumone who doesnt fold top pair or give credit when its needed then raises my river lead out which i think is not to good

Its a big buy in and like first level and i couldnt see any regs loving there aq so early on on such a board like this and thx guys for your suggestions

kidwiz10

When i dont hit river i stil make same move the turn was what i was repping hence the flat on the flop then the min raise on the turn then the lead out on river , and to be honest you could class it as spewy but i make the same move with 23 if it was the WSOP do you stack off with aq then if i played it the same way??? or would you actually give me credit for my min raise after flatting flop then leading river regardless if i hit the 9 or not

AMYBR

tbh from everything you say I'd feel confident in saying oppo had a good view to your line, so dynamic would be everything.

You dont need me to tell you the effect of above avg'ing reps IP.  Looking closer at the hand + based on what you said it seems clear he was in c/c mode for value vs known trickster   So I think your ability to rep those hands is very diminished on dynamic.

He is obv playing his hand as nuts vs you there.

KAM99

Sorry but it was just wrong the whole hand, an can see why you got some abuse. I mean yes you raised him, but it was a min raise, and thats just not really pushing off many hands and more so in a

Not even sure why you are bothering with this hand preflop while at this blind levels, as its just not worth it button or not. Raising 80 to win 30, and continuing even after being reraised.. hardly worth it wih a weak hand at this stage even on Btn. And I have feeling he may have judged his hand on what he had seen you doing so far, but thats a guess.

Anyway, if its your style and you want to play it go for it, but think it will cause you more problems long run that it will give you winning hands.

kidwiz10

Yes a min raise is probly the strongest move you can make in my opionion and how many times would you suggest that someone is flatting flop then min raising turn on pretty much a bluff so early on? yea to win 30 is okay im only getting action if im beat and only got the blinds to go through so its okay in my opinion

Ive requested the hand be showed tonight on show and ill get some final input from regs on it just so i can feel confident wether it is ba din the long run

percival09

firstly, calling a 3b readless with K9o is pretty bad, it has great reverse implied odds and you don't know villains tendencies in 3b pots

you must be pretty sure of villains range to turn your hand into a bluff on the turn? If you've been playing loosely on the table, he's never folding anything against you. If you actually had a flush would you min raise the turn? 

the whole hand is a bit messed up but you somehow come up against A high so wd

in the long run this definitely isn't profitable though

kidwiz10

This was only like 10minutes into the first level lol and no there wasnt to much action goin on for that time period at least , but even if he has AA KK is this still bad getting it in on river on that bord as its such a wet bord and 1 pair can never be good here with the action thrown at you , if roles wer reversed and i had AA KK AQ and my bet on flop gets called then i get min raised on turn im throwing it away on turn straight away! , and no im the loosest of players but 9/10 times i find min raise is always the nuts on that sort of bord and ill be having no more action with my alone pair and thats just me others may agree or not

Fabraclass

In Response to Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

Hand History #524720341 (21:08 28/05/2012) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance paul10 Small blind   10.00 10.00 4270.00 DivsDreams Big blind   20.00 30.00 4020.00   Your hole cards 9 K       diamond81 Fold         TIMBER Fold         ginjagaide Fold         kidwiz10 Raise   80.00 110.00 3590.00 paul10 Fold         XXX  Raise   187.50 297.50 3832.50 kidwiz10 Call   127.50 425.00 3462.50 Flop     Q 9 3       XXX  Bet   318.75 743.75 3513.75 kidwiz10 Call   318.75 1062.50 3143.75 Turn     10       XXX  Bet   531.25 1593.75 2982.50 kidwiz10 Raise   1062.50 2656.25 2081.25 XXX  Call   531.25 3187.50 2451.25 River     9       XXX  Check         kidwiz10 Bet   1180.00 4367.50 901.25 xxx  All-in   2451.25 6818.75 0.00 kidwiz10 All-in   901.25 7720.00 0.00 XXX  Unmatched bet   370.00 7350.00 370.00 DivsDreams Show Q A       kidwiz10 Show 9 K       kidwiz10 Win Three 9s 7350.00   7350.00 Okay here goes this was the £110 £4k bh last night its the highest mtt ive ever played and to be honest it showed im not used to bigger blinds levels with more play to it. Anyway this call might seem loose but with me bein the utter calling station that i am n aggro i tried out playing him but i got alot of abuse for this when i ended up winning the hand , but where im curious is my bad play actually bad? i put him on KK AA aq and when i min raise the turn is this such a bad play? as goin broke here with an alone pair so early on cant be too good right? i tried repping flush or at least the straight on turn but when he puts me on river after my lead out i was astonished to see what he had! So would like some input on the hand please thx
Posted by kidwiz10

Readless I would prob just fold pre mate. If I have a read that they a 3 betting my button raise's a very large amount and they have the ability to fold to a 4 bet I prefer a 4 bet. By 4 betting I have fold equity against this kind of player, and if they do call me I have the betting lead and position which will enable my to control the hand better.

If I have good reads on how they play post flop after 3 betting out of position, they I think you can call. But I would like a strong read and precise information on their post flop betting pattern.. As I wouldn't feel comfortable unless i hit two pair. Even with trip kings I wouldn't feel comfortable given the depth of your stacks. Even kings and 9s this deep I wouldn't feel comfortable with.

Given the fact that you are so deep, this does give you more license to outplay them post flop. However you may have to commit a lot of chips in a tournament in particular, trying to push them off hands. And as this hand demonstrated, people can find it very difficult to fold hands, even this deep.

I think this calling in position to outplay people post flop is overrated. Particularly without good information on your opponent. In omaha their is a case for calling more often in position, but even in omaha i think you should fold bad hands to 3 bets when you have position, particularly weak flush potential, low unconnected cards etc.

kidwiz10

Yea i guess i should fold to his raise preas k9 doesnt play well against anything but as i did call assuming the hands i did put him on flatting his c bet on flop then min raising his turn then leading river surely has gotta get through on more occasions than not right? unless i dont have notes of course and im playing a player who just doesnt fold top pair no matter the run out!

I guess i got lucky on the river but suggest it was the better player who does give credit and knows that goin broke here with top pair is ludocris it is correct giving you have notes on them bein able to fold big holdings on such a wet bord

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

Yea i guess i should fold to his raise preas k9 doesnt play well against anything but as i did call assuming the hands i did put him on flatting his c bet on flop then min raising his turn then leading river surely has gotta get through on more occasions than not right? unless i dont have notes of course and im playing a player who just doesnt fold top pair no matter the run out! I guess i got lucky on the river but suggest it was the better player who does give credit and knows that goin broke here with top pair is ludocris it is correct giving you have notes on them bein able to fold big holdings on such a wet bord
Posted by kidwiz10

Yeah you are right, a very good player would fold a lot of hands beating you in this situation. Against a very good player 3 beting your button raise a lot, I would still prefer a 4 bet or fold to a call as, as you said it is hard to hit much decent with K9 post flop, and they may put you in some very tough spots. The very good player is far more likely to fold out of position to your 4 bet. But I still think a fold is good, unless they are 3 betting you a huge amount.

Given that you called in this hand, I think your play on the flop and turn was very good. The problem was they turned out to be a weak player.
Your move shows a lot of heart.I would personally save these kind of moves for cash against very good players. rather then tournament though. Their are a lot of tough cash players out their.

IDONKCALLU

i dnt undertsand your raise on the turn u only have middle pair just call and a lucky card on river obv u going to call any bet or even shove if this was a blank on the  river are u calling a big bet tho that is u only have 2nd pair 

kidwiz10

Thanx fabraclass yea i think 4 betting was the correct move  , and yea i guess i found sum1 who doesnt fold 1 pair on that such of bord , anyway cash is my main game i am terrible at mtt if im honest i play to many hands i try to bluff and out play on most occasions thats probly why i dont go very far but ill always stick to my game even if it works for cash and isnt very addaptable in mtt! just gotta calm down i thinks with the aggro thx for your time and effort with pointing out things

kidwiz10

IDONKCALLU your missing the whole point of this post? if you read the first post from me i put him on AA KK AQ thats why i flatted flop never thinking my 9 was good of course just trying to rep sumthing big if it hits turn eg the turn which completes flush/straight is a great card for me i min raise as this is usually the sign u got it 9/10 times! and with this tourny bein the buy in and structure as it is really is anyone ever blufifng here

when he flats me i think he may have the nut flush draw or 2nd nut draw when the river blanks out thi is great for me to continue yes the trips on river was nice but i was making my action well b4 that hit so you cant class me as calling to hit trips is why i won as i was repping a much bigger hand on the turn , as fabraclass pointed out a better player in this situation would have folded better hands was just unlucky i ran into sum1 who doesnt fold top pair so early on when all the signs are there to fold!

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

Thanx fabraclass yea i think 4 betting was the correct move  , and yea i guess i found sum1 who doesnt fold 1 pair on that such of bord , anyway cash is my main game i am terrible at mtt if im honest i play to many hands i try to bluff and out play on most occasions thats probly why i dont go very far but ill always stick to my game even if it works for cash and isnt very addaptable in mtt! just gotta calm down i thinks with the aggro thx for your time and effort with pointing out things
Posted by kidwiz10

Either villain is bad

OR

knows exactly how blue relates to red in above post

kidwiz10

Was that ment to be some form of sarcism amy?

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else! : Either villain is bad OR knows exactly how blue relates to red in above post
Posted by AMYBR

Yeah you have to be careful about making too many moves. In both cash and tournaments. As good players can pick up on this and bluff catch.

kidwiz10

Yea to be honest i rearly play mtt i jsut wanted to give it ago but ill most defo go for smaller options and as u say keep the moves to cash wher ei can at least top up without damaging my stack

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

Was that ment to be some form of sarcism amy?
Posted by kidwiz10

Sigh.... No.

IDONKCALLU

so u put him on aa kk ak  and u raise turn ???? ok lol 

kidwiz10

Are you really so stupid did u even look at how the bord ran out? it was the first level u have to think why i flatted flop in the first place then i min raise turn which completes both flush and straight AA kk is only 1 pair at the end of the day

IDONKCALLU

im just doing this 2 wind u up its clearly working u obv get tilted alot and u seem rude so i am coming up with simple answers lol 

kidwiz10

Or its cus your just pretty much very sad you dont have a clue what your on about and you cant say anything reasonable so youve gotta act a right idiot?

EvilPingu

Right, okay, where to start with this...

Raising the button with K9 is fine, but at this stage of a tournament, i'd be more inclined to just throw it away. Opening isn't a mistake though, IMO.

Once villain 3bets, it's a pretty easy 4bet or fold with K9 - I'd much prefer a fold, because there's just so many problems with calling with K9 in this spot:

1) We're behind to most, if not all of our opponent's 3bet range.

2) Our opponent is the aggressor, and people very rarely 3bet then check the flop, so we're going to have to fold this so many times when we miss.

3) If we do hit the flop, despite having position, we're going to be dominated by overpairs or only flop middle pair if we hit our 9, or outkicked if we hit our K.

4) We're only ever going to be comfortable if we flop 2 pair or better, which is very rare, and even then there's no guarantee we'll get paid, or that we'll be ahead.

For those reasons, I'm never calling a 3bet with K9.

If we consider 4betting pre - A lot of players will only 4bet when they have a really strong hand, so if you choose to 4bet here, then it will get through as a bluff a lot of the time. This isn't necessarily the worst option in the world, because we have position, so if our opponent peels, he'll be doing that knowing he's OOP for the rest of the hand, so peeling isn't great for our opponent. Therefore, our opponent is going to have quite a lot of hands that he'll 3bet/fold here.

The opponent's other option would be to 5bet. 200bb deep, a 5bet is going to represent such a large amount of his stack that he'll become pot committed, so I think he'll only ever 5bet a monster hand to get stacks in, and that range is literally going to be AA, KK, maybe QQ. I can see a 4bet getting through a lot of the time here, or our opponent peels and we can c-bet certain flops and win the pot. If we do get 5bet, it's a VERY easy fold.

Having said that, if we're going to 4bet here to have some 4bet bluffs in our range, I'd much rather be 4betting a hand like 78s, which still has 22-23% equity against overpairs, and will often flop a draw which makes it easier for us to continue the story of a premium pair with a semi-bluff on later streets. Although I'm not particularly keen on 4betting K9 here, I think it's a better option than just calling the 3bet, so if I'm going any further with this hand, it's always with a 4bet and never with a flat call.

Of course, the best thing we could possibly do here would simply be to click the "Fold" button. 

Fold > 4bet > Call.

Flop

I'm going to use bright pink now...

If we're calling a 3bet with K9, then hit this flop, I think we have to call. Once our opponent has 3bet, he's betting that flop almost 100% of the time, whether he's hit or not, so I don't think a call with position is awful, as played. I wouldn't get into that spot in the first place, but if I did, I'd call the flop.

Turn

The turn is an interesting card, and one of the worst in the deck for our opponent - Our call on the flop could be a flush draw. However, you have to ask yourself: If you actually had the flush, are you ever going to click it back on the turn? I would imagine you're either shoving the turn, or calling and shoving the river, so for that reason, I don't really like the click back. It's also the first level of a tournament, so I don't like putting our entire stack at risk by turning third pair into a bluff, and by calling, we're behind almost all of the time here, so although it's a horrible turn card for our opponent, I think it is best to just check/fold.

FWIW: I think our opponent knows where he is once you've min re-raised the turn, it's either the nuts or nowt. 

River

Good card ofc, as we've improved. I think we have to shove as played. Your bet size on the river is pointless, if he's going to call that, he'll call an all in, so just shove instead. He's almost certainly got Qx here, and almost always AQ or KQ from 3betting pre, so we're almost certainly going to get paid here.

FWIW: I don't like the villain's shove. Our bet on the turn has polarised our range, we either have the nuts, so we snap call his shove and he loses an extra few hundred chips, or we have nothing and sigh fold with a few hundred chips back when he would've won anyway, so I think the villain's shove is actually a mistake as it achieves absolutely nothing.

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

im just doing this 2 wind u up its clearly working u obv get tilted alot and u seem rude so i am coming up with simple answers lol 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Which is known as trolling and will often result in a moderator grabbing you by the collar and dragging you out of the forum quicker than you can beg for forgiveness Just sayin'.

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Input on this would be pretty good as i seem to be a donkey, clown eg? id say i got balls other than anything else!:

Right, okay, where to start with this... Raising the button with K9 is fine, but at this stage of a tournament, i'd be more inclined to just throw it away. Opening isn't a mistake though, IMO. Once villain 3bets, it's a pretty easy 4bet or fold with K9 - I'd much prefer a fold , because there's just so many problems with calling with K9 in this spot: 1) We're behind to most, if not all of our opponent's 3bet range. 2) Our opponent is the aggressor, and people very rarely 3bet then check the flop, so we're going to have to fold this so many times when we miss. 3) If we do hit the flop, despite having position, we're going to be dominated by overpairs or only flop middle pair if we hit our 9, or outkicked if we hit our K. 4) We're only ever going to be comfortable if we flop 2 pair or better, which is very rare, and even then there's no guarantee we'll get paid, or that we'll be ahead. For those reasons, I'm never calling a 3bet with K9 . If we consider 4betting pre - A lot of players will only 4bet when they have a really strong hand, so if you choose to 4bet here, then it will get through as a bluff a lot of the time. This isn't necessarily the worst option in the world, because we have position, so if our opponent peels, he'll be doing that knowing he's OOP for the rest of the hand, so peeling isn't great for our opponent. Therefore, our opponent is going to have quite a lot of hands that he'll 3bet/fold here. The opponent's other option would be to 5bet. 200bb deep, a 5bet is going to represent such a large amount of his stack that he'll become pot committed, so I think he'll only ever 5bet a monster hand to get stacks in, and that range is literally going to be AA, KK, maybe QQ. I can see a 4bet getting through a lot of the time here, or our opponent peels and we can c-bet certain flops and win the pot. If we do get 5bet, it's a VERY easy fold. Having said that, if we're going to 4bet here to have some 4bet bluffs in our range, I'd much rather be 4betting a hand like 78s, which still has 22-23% equity against overpairs, and will often flop a draw which makes it easier for us to continue the story of a premium pair with a semi-bluff on later streets. Although I'm not particularly keen on 4betting K9 here, I think it's a better option than just calling the 3bet, so if I'm going any further with this hand, it's always with a 4bet and never with a flat call. Of course, the best thing we could possibly do here would simply be to click the "Fold" button.  Fold /> 4bet /> Call. Flop I'm going to use bright pink now... If we're calling a 3bet with K9, then hit this flop, I think we have to call. Once our opponent has 3bet, he's betting that flop almost 100% of the time, whether he's hit or not, so I don't think a call with position is awful, as played. I wouldn't get into that spot in the first place, but if I did, I'd call the flop. Turn The turn is an interesting card, and one of the worst in the deck for our opponent - Our call on the flop could be a flush draw. However, you have to ask yourself: If you actually had the flush, are you ever going to click it back on the turn? I would imagine you're either shoving the turn, or calling and shoving the river, so for that reason, I don't really like the click back. It's also the first level of a tournament, so I don't like putting our entire stack at risk by turning third pair into a bluff, and by calling, we're behind almost all of the time here, so although it's a horrible turn card for our opponent, I think it is best to just check/fold. FWIW: I think our opponent knows where he is once you've min re-raised the turn, it's either the nuts or nowt.  River Good card ofc, as we've improved. I think we have to shove as played. Your bet size on the river is pointless, if he's going to call that, he'll call an all in, so just shove instead. He's almost certainly got Qx here, and almost always AQ or KQ from 3betting pre, so we're almost certainly going to get paid here. FWIW: I don't like the villain's shove. Our bet on the turn has polarised our range, we either have the nuts, so we snap call his shove and he loses an extra few hundred chips, or we have nothing and sigh fold with a few hundred chips back when he would've won anyway, so I think the villain's shove is actually a mistake as it achieves absolutely nothing.
Posted by EvilPingu

I really like this post. A lot of sense. And a lot of very good advice given. Good post EvilPingu

GELDY

kidwiz - if this is a true poker clinic hand then listen to the advice given - peeps have spent a lot of effort to highlight where they think you could have played it differently

if all you wanted it to be was a brag post stick it in bbv and don't waste everyone's time