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Was one of those I couldnt bring myself to click fold with.
If oppo has worse, do we end up loosing value from one street though :S
nh
I would expect him to donk lead turn a lot, with all kinds of hands, value, air and draws. We can just call because raising makes no sense....then call pretty much any river expecting to win most of the time.
If he check raises I think it looks very strong, Id call and then decide on river based on how much he bets.
We are beat here on flop and river, but hold the nuts on the turn, which really isnt immaterial. All I think we achieve is to lose value over volume.
What read is this now, I was obviously pretty confident I was ahead when I opened the river......once he raises of course that changes my read on the situation.
Not sure what youre trying to say here.
I do see where you are coming from opting to go for some pot control so deep, but its simply not a choice I personally would make. But even if I were to, the flop would not be the street I would elect to do so.
I'd be looking to generate a big pot vs fellow deep stack with K's, rather than going into the hand being afraid to do so.
Cant really look at this hand in isolation. If we play this set up 10000 /> times we are just burning money (obv with oppo holdings and T & R varied.)
Did you think you had the best hand on the flop?
Pot controlling with the best hand would seem bad to me. In this spot - I've 3-bet pre-flop, been called and the flop has come down Ten-high with a flush draw - I would be fairly convinced that my hand was best. Apart from sets I can't see any hand that beats me, as AA is very rarely going to be in my opponent's range.
I'm reading talk of "Three streets of value". I wouldn't be thinking about that. I would be thinking about what hands are going to call me on the flop. What hands am I getting value from on the flop? I have one-pair, not a monster that I know is always going to be the best hand on the river, but I believe it's the best hand now. If it's the best hand now and money goes into the pot, that's good for me. The turn could change things and then I might have to change tack, but right now getting money in is good.
Value bet your hand when it figures to be ahead. You can get called by flush draws, AT, KT, QT, JT, 9T. These hands haven't called a pre-flop 3-bet to just fold top-pair or a flush draw to a standard c-bet.
You might be check-raised but it's up to you to figure out what hands are doing that. I'd suggest there would be more Tens and Flush draws in his check-raising range than hands that beat us. That's going to make it fairly easy to play subsequent streets - Clubs are bad for us, bricks are good. Of course, if he fires on blank turns and again on blank rivers, then perhaps we can assign him a stronger made hand anyway.
So, I'm c-betting this flop and, if I would c-bet it with all of my pre-flop bluffing hands, I think it is a mistake to not c-bet it.
On the river his range is so polarised. You're getting roughly 2/1 on your money, so is a third of his range a bluff or an overvalued and strangely played underset or two-pair? I'm going to avoid answering that as I think it's close and fairly player dependent, though I would hardly even spare a thought for a set of Aces as it was played so atypically...
Incidentally, to whoever it was that thought that the guy with the Aces played it well I would simply point out that the way he played it he could have been sat looking at top set on the river with only 32BB in the pot. What makes it worse is that his opponent has KK. This hand should have been a cooler in his favour. Across your poker career you don't make money from coolers but if you don't get fully paid when it goes in your favour, you can lose money from these coolers. This guy is going to lose money.
If i raise your cbet 100% of the time how many hands are you willing to stack off with?
Do I think I had best hand on flop....more then likely.
But poker, for me at least is not as simple as betting evertyime its likely you may have the best hand. This deep my hand is very vulnerable, it rarely improves and he has many hands which are at least 50/50 against me and can improve.
For example, if he has 9c, jc although my hand is best right now, he is 56 percent favourite to win the hand.
If he has ac qc hes 46 percent.
If he has jh, 9h hes 36 but imporotantly if he hits Im letft guessing a bit.
On top of that he could already have me beat with two pair or sets. So you see this is the exact kind of hand you want to pot control with. You are rarely getting stacks in unless your beat and an overpair is hardly a hand I want to put in 270 bb.
If he raises me with anything Im going to be guessing what he has. He could very easily get away with taking me off hand with air.
Logic of many people doesnt make sense to me but an interesting thread.
I think it's a mistake not to c-bet when we can be called by worse. Now, I'm not saying it's a massive problem to check behind, as we're likely to only get one street of value (maybe two) from anything we're beating anyway, but what do we want to do when the turn is a club or an Ace? Do we still get value from a bare Ten? Do we still get value from a flush draw if the turn is a blank? If you're check-raised you've got to ask yourself what he's doing that with and that's going to be alot of flush draws and J9, maybe JJ, as well as possible sets and an unlikely 8T.
I'm going to c-bet this flop and then whether I get it in is going to be dependent on my image and on what hands I think my opponent will expect me to have. If he thinks I'm super-tight, then I'm less enjoying getting it in on this flop, though I'd still probably get it in. If he has a set or it's a flip, then so be it. I wouldn't imagine that my opponents would see my c-bet as being super-strong so of course they're going to check-raise a fair amount.... but with KK, I'm beating that range.
The point is you can be called here by worse: Tens, possibly those straight and flush draws and maybe underpairs or an 8 can call. I'm not sure why the talk is exclusively of getting stacks in.
Offshoot, I'm sure you don't mean this, but your post seems to imply that you'd c-bet with bluffs but not strong made hands. There will be hands I don't c-bet but I don't think an overpair that I imagine to be good is one of those when I can see alot of hands that I can get value from. How exploitable are you going to be if you raise my c-bets 100% of the time?
Spad3s, I don't disagree that those hands are not brilliant for us but against his broader range I think a bet here is always going to be best. The only information we have is that they've called our pre-flop 3-bet and then checked the flop. Of course it's player dependent as to what hands are going to do that but against an unknown opponent I'm thinking mostly of hands like; AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, TT, 99 as well as possibly lower suited connectors and lower pairs. That's alot of hands. Only a few of them are we actually in bad shape against but many of them will put more money in now while they're behind.
Let me ask you another question or two; You check, the 3c hits on the turn and your opponent bets out. Are you just going to fold? If not, then you're giving a free card to a flush draw and then putting in money when you've gone behind. If you are folding, how easily are you being bluffed?
I assume you wouldn't fold but if you're willing to put money in after a third club has hit, then why not put it in before?
By checking flop we essentially take away the c/r move on the flop and can continue extracting two streets of value from worse.
I gotta say though to check or to c bet flop would depend on oppo's tendacies and how capable they are.
Think it would also depend how often your 3 betting pre and dynamics between you.
The more capabele they are of c/r with bluffs through to sets, the more I like checking flop.
plus, it's a intresting dilema where you hear so much that to 3 bet is to then c bet.
Even though we pick up pots with c bets in 3 bet pots, where we 3 bet light :S
Doesnt' our checking range on flop become very transparent unless we delay c bet till turn in 3 bet pots some of the time.
Funny how divided people are on this.
The point a lot of people seem to be missing is that its not always a case of checking is wrong and betting is right. Often either are correct options, each with their own merits.
Still in this case, against a random unknown I personally prefer to check this flop most of the time. Its not that I play scared, its that I dont think this is a good spot to get stacks in with 270bb, so I have to slow it down somewhere, or I could face some decisions where Im guessing.
On river I did call the bet, but was one of those where I clicked fealing I should fold....prob should have folded I think. You may have a hard time seeing how he can have qj, but I have a hard time seeing how he can be betting there thinking he can get value out of a worse hand, without having me beat.
There are reasons to opt to check flop, but for pot control would be very close to the bottom of the list.
Guess you have been doing some thinking bud
And as already pointed out, my mentality in hand would be fundamentaly different: being aiming to build a large pot rather than fearing to. I'm just happy to shoot for value being quite aware of my table image. So I do not see a point checking flop as pot control at all.
But yes looking at others opinions and different playing styles I guess we could find other reasons to check flop, but why bother when the capacity/potential to get called/raised by far worse is so high, when we have cultivated the appropriate image? Individuals with a lower cbet % likely lose value and are in danger of showing hand range face up. Question simply becomes which range of hands are we more often facing? The 2 made hands through streets that crush us plus a flush draw (which we can get some value from IP, esp when c/r'd on flop), or a wider range of hands that we comfortably build a pot against through streets.
The fact that oppo shows up with A's here is immaterial. I dont think hand should be looked at in isolation, should be looked at as how would play over a larger sample obv.
Odd mentality for posting a hand......
I guess Im glad you can now see reasons to check.
Not sure what mentality you mean.
Dont post a hand if you dont want feedback from a variety of perspectives