so embarassing... (rant continued)

Buistyboy

Hi JJ

Credit to you for reading this and other threads and taking all the comments on board.  You may be a "newbie" to the forum, but you'll soon be a regular and i look forward to your participating in the forum with constructive threads, and plenty of contributions.

Hale72

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued) : LOL i think you've managed to offend Helmuth, Raymer and all of the Hendon Mob there by grouping them with Chris Moneymaker!
Posted by SHANXTA

Moneymaker!!!!

One win, and the guy will live off this for the rest of his life.

Now not knocking the bracelet, I will never get that far, but please, retire if you have any cash left before you go bankrupt.

brookbrid

dohhhhh,

your wasting your time.

Clique, closed shop, but you are right to critisise if u like, we pay their wages at £58 a month, so if you want you can.

Take no notice of the tefal gang.

All the best

Tikay10

Well done Dohhhh - nice Post. We'll get along just fine, I'm sure.

Handy Hint - if you want to criticise an on-screen Presenter or Analyst, the easy target is Lord Gloat. We are all on his case.  

PS - Yes, I well knew you meant "59,000". It was my juvenile way of making the point about how easy it is to make mistakes. I prefer that method to HU4RLZ, on so many levels.

Tikay10

God bless 35suited - I was beginning to think it (my 59,00 comment) had been wasted......

chirker

It doesn't surprise me that so many forum regulars came to jame's defence. But i'm pretty sure that there are lot's of people who agree with DOHHHHHHHH's opinion who won't reply on the forum. Personally, i'm not keen on james as an analyst, it seem's to me he think's there is only one way to play poker, and that's his way. But i would never abuse him personally, just because i don't like the way he analyse's poker, that doesn't mean he is no good at it. It's just my opinion, and i'm sure he's more successful at poker than i will ever be. And i'm sure if we all agreed with all the analyst's, we would all  have a wsop bracelet, and that's not going to happen, is it.

Tikay10

Nice balanced Post by Chirker. James is opinionated & very aggressive in how he gives opinions, but it's horses for courses. But we are talking about Presentational or Analytical skills here. 

I do think it's important when we (Analysts/Presenters) analyse TV hands on 865 that we remember that WE can see everyone's cards - whereas the Players, obv, could not.

And we have to work out, & explain, why someone might make a basic error, & to do that, & be on Message, we need to be a little circumspect.

So when we see, say, 10,000 chips in the Pot, & someone bets 500, it's easy to laugh, or mock, or ridicule, but that won't help anyone. We need to find a way to help the Player understand why that Bet serves no purpose. I'd like to think both James & I (& the other Guys) all do that - but we do it different ways. It's nowt to do with poker skills, it's coaching/mentoring kills.

James = Aggro.

tikay = Cooey-Wooey.

And so between all of us, we get the same message across, but in different ways.
 
Think of Old Mother Hubbard, who's dish ran away with the spoon.*

* Blatant diversionary tactic, as in chaff.

daveydavey

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Hi JJ Credit to you for reading this and other threads and taking all the comments on board.  You may be a "newbie" to the forum, but you'll soon be a regular and i look forward to your participating in the forum with constructive threads, and plenty of contributions.
Posted by Buistyboy

Nicest guy on the forum/world?

chirker

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Nice balanced Post by Chirker. James is opinionated & very aggressive in how he gives opinions, but it's horses for courses. But we are talking about Presentational or Analytical skills here.  I do think it's important when we (Analysts/Presenters) analyse TV hands on 865 that we remember that WE can see everyone's cards - whereas the Players, obv, could not. And we have to work out, & explain, why someone might make a basic error, & to do that, & be on Message, we need to be a little circumspect. So when we see, say, 10,000 chips in the Pot, & someone bets 500, it's easy to laugh, or mock, or ridicule, but that won't help anyone. We need to find a way to help the Player understand why that Bet serves no purpose. I'd like to think both James & I (& the other Guys) all do that - but we do it different ways. It's nowt to do with poker skills, it's coaching/mentoring kills. James = Aggro. tikay = Cooey-Wooey. And so between all of us, we get the same message across, but in different ways.   Think of Old Mother Hubbard, who's dish ran away with the spoon.* * Blatant diversionary tactic, as in chaff.
Posted by Tikay10

I agree with the point's you make, i also think you all do a great job. I was thinking, it's a lot easier to comment on hands when you can see all the card's, an advantage we don't have when playing.I was watching a tourny on T.V. the other night(it wasn't sky). the analyst's were doing the same job as you all do on sky, but every so often they would just see the card's of one player, then analyze the hand without seeing the other hand's until the hand was over. I found this to be a good way to get their point across, maybe sky could introduce this, just say four or five time's a tournament, would be interesting to see how many time's they played the hand "correctly".

Tikay10

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued) : I agree with the point's you make, i also think you all do a great job. I was thinking, it's a lot easier to comment on hands when you can see all the card's, an advantage we don't have when playing.I was watching a tourny on T.V. the other night(it wasn't sky). the analyst's were doing the same job as you all do on sky, but every so often they would just see the card's of one player, then analyze the hand without seeing the other hand's until the hand was over. I found this to be a good way to get their point across, maybe sky could introduce this, just say four or five time's a tournament, would be interesting to see how many time's they played the hand "correctly".
Posted by chirker

Yes, I saw that, too. but the Analysts HAD seen the hands - they were just not shown in-vision. The feed (to the Commentary booth) is continious, it's what's only what was transmitted that changed.

Coild Sky Poker do it? I think it might be technically very awkward - the Virtual Set is a fairly complex bit of Software.

Sure, it'd make the Analysts job much harder, more challenging - bring it on! - but part of the Message is "education", & there's no doubt that seeing everyone's hands does - or should - help everyone play better poker.

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued) : I agree with the point's you make, i also think you all do a great job. I was thinking, it's a lot easier to comment on hands when you can see all the card's, an advantage we don't have when playing.I was watching a tourny on T.V. the other night(it wasn't sky). the analyst's were doing the same job as you all do on sky, but every so often they would just see the card's of one player, then analyze the hand without seeing the other hand's until the hand was over. I found this to be a good way to get their point across, maybe sky could introduce this, just say four or five time's a tournament, would be interesting to see how many time's they played the hand "correctly".
Posted by chirker

That is a great idea Chirker. i have also seen this being done by other poker analysts on other poker shows and i have found it beneficial not to see all the cards all of the time. This way, the hand/situation is not so easy to evaluate and makes for better veiwing of the outcome of that particular hand. All the analysts (IMO) do a good job of not an easy task but with different styles. The one thing i find shocking tho is that Rich Orford is clearly a better poker player than all of them put together and he is only a presenter! (that might ruffle a few egos now....lol)

chirker

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued) : Yes, I saw that, too. but the Analysts HAD seen the hands - they were just not shown in-vision. The feed (to the Commentary booth) is continious, it's what's only what was transmitted that changed. Coild Sky Poker do it? I think it might be technically very awkward - the Virtual Set is a fairly complex bit of Software. Sure, it'd make the Analysts job much harder, more challenging - bring it on! - but part of the Message is "education", & there's no doubt that seeing everyone's hands does - or should - help everyone play better poker.
Posted by Tikay10

Fair point, it was just a suggestion, and i've learn't a lot from watching you all on sky. I'm not winning much, but I am getting better (Ithink).

mr_mbro

Hi Guys
Can i put something into this arena please.
When Ed Giddins first started analysing on the site, i found it a bit difficult to watch, as he was imo a bit nervous and looked a bit unsure, but over the time i have found his style has become a lot more relaxed and confident, therefore, i have taken a lot from HIS style and the way he looks more into the odds side of poker. 
I am a self proclaimed TAG player and will take a lot out of what James says in the future as well.
A great example of different styles of analysis, is James Browning. He can talk the hind legs off a donkey, but he can walk the walk and when he argues something along the lines of JH, it is a told in a different way.
James Hartigan is a bit more matter of fact, but no less insightful in what he says. Nice to see an aggressive players take on things.
In writing this, I, in no way am criticising any of the analysts and having met most of them and talked in depth to them, they are all very nice people. Even TK and Rich Orford lol

COL

RICHORFORD

Hello! I actually posted this on the other thread, but since there are two threads on this topic I've stuck it on here as well.

In Response to James hartigan.....are u serious?:

Just jumped out of bed to go and fetch my laptop to make this post, never use the forum.....shows how strongly i feel. Im watching the repeat of the primo...is this bloke serious with what hes saying? just seen 59,00 in the pot on an AJJJ x board....n the fella bets 3k.........thats 20/1 on a call......the bloke called with a king n lost to an ace, how on earth can that be a bad call, hes winning more than once every 20 times. this fella commentating is so card orientated its unreal. has he ever done anything in the game? shudnt he be a presenter rather than an expert? infuriated me so much ive got out of bed to get mi laptop to have a moan at him. so annoying as if hes folding k high there . rant over, JJ
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Well, I see your point about that particular example Mr. Dohhhh but, if I may offer my two penneth here, I think James Hartigan ticks all the right boxes. He's smart, funny, enthusiastic about the game and about Sky Poker and is extremely skilled at making complicated things sound simple.

4 hours of live tv without stopping is a long old stint and mistakes often creep in- if indeed what James advocated was a 'mistake'.

Remember of course when it comes to strategy one man's meat is another man's poison. Tikay and Ed, both well respected and excellent poker commentators take completely opposite stances on the concept of min-raises.

As for achievements in the game- well, to name just one example, whatever has John Motson done in the world of football to justify him being given commentary duties on every big match?

FlashFlush

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Hello! I actually posted this on the other thread, but since there are two threads on this topic I've stuck it on here as well. In Response to James hartigan.....are u serious? : Just jumped out of bed to go and fetch my laptop to make this post, never use the forum.....shows how strongly i feel. Im watching the repeat of the primo...is this bloke serious with what hes saying? just seen 59,00 in the pot on an AJJJ x board....n the fella bets 3k.........thats 20/1 on a call......the bloke called with a king n lost to an ace, how on earth can that be a bad call, hes winning more than once every 20 times. this fella commentating is so card orientated its unreal. has he ever done anything in the game? shudnt he be a presenter rather than an expert? infuriated me so much ive got out of bed to get mi laptop to have a moan at him. so annoying as if hes folding k high there . rant over, JJ Posted by DOHHHHHHH Well, I see your point about that particular example Mr. Dohhhh but, if I may offer my two penneth here, I think James Hartigan ticks all the right boxes. He's smart, funny, enthusiastic about the game and about Sky Poker and is extremely skilled at making complicated things sound simple. 4 hous of live tv without stopping is a long old stint and mistakes often creep in- if indeed what James advocated was a 'mistake'. Remember of course when it comes to strategy one man's meat is another man's poison. Tikay and Ed, both well respected and excellent poker commentators take completely opposite stances on the concept of min-raises. As for achievements in the game- well, to name just one example, whatever has John Motson done in the world of football to justify him being given commentary duties on every big match?
Posted by RICHORFORD

whats with all the g4y talk on the forum today? :-)

LONGPLAY

"As for achievements in the game- well, to name just one example, whatever has John Motson done in the world of football to justify him being given commentary duties on every big match?"

poker is a far far more complex game than football,i think a poker analyst needs to have "been there and done that" to earn his right to commentate, whereas football commentary is just bleh.

tallboy

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Hello! I actually posted this on the other thread, but since there are two threads on this topic I've stuck it on here as well. In Response to James hartigan.....are u serious? : Just jumped out of bed to go and fetch my laptop to make this post, never use the forum.....shows how strongly i feel. Im watching the repeat of the primo...is this bloke serious with what hes saying? just seen 59,00 in the pot on an AJJJ x board....n the fella bets 3k.........thats 20/1 on a call......the bloke called with a king n lost to an ace, how on earth can that be a bad call, hes winning more than once every 20 times. this fella commentating is so card orientated its unreal. has he ever done anything in the game? shudnt he be a presenter rather than an expert? infuriated me so much ive got out of bed to get mi laptop to have a moan at him. so annoying as if hes folding k high there . rant over, JJ Posted by DOHHHHHHH Well, I see your point about that particular example Mr. Dohhhh but, if I may offer my two penneth here, I think James Hartigan ticks all the right boxes. He's smart, funny, enthusiastic about the game and about Sky Poker and is extremely skilled at making complicated things sound simple. 4 hous of live tv without stopping is a long old stint and mistakes often creep in- if indeed what James advocated was a 'mistake'. Remember of course when it comes to strategy one man's meat is another man's poison. Tikay and Ed, both well respected and excellent poker commentators take completely opposite stances on the concept of min-raises. As for achievements in the game- well, to name just one example, whatever has John Motson done in the world of football to justify him being given commentary duties on every big match?
Posted by RICHORFORD

I second that Rich. All James is guilty of is not being perfect,How many people go through their working lives not making mistakes? Nobody of course, I've often sat with him in Mtts's and on cash tables and i find him extremely intelligent and with a great sense of humour. If he does go to Glasgow for the SPT i will be the first in the cue to buy him a drink as he's a top bloke in my opinion.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

"As for achievements in the game- well, to name just one example, whatever has John Motson done in the world of football to justify him being given commentary duties on every big match?" poker is a far far more complex game than football,i think a poker analyst needs to have "been there and done that" to earn his right to commentate, whereas football commentary is just bleh.
Posted by LONGPLAY

Have you seen Jesse May's Poker CV?

DOHHHHHHH

When John Motsons commentating i turn the sound off. haha. Anyway ive tried to explain my comments throughout this thread and admitted they were rash and not explained very well. Was hoping it would have disappeared when i logged back on haha. Jesse May's the presenter/commentator tho aint he? there for entertainment and to overview the situation, as is john motson, give you the teams/details of officials etc. Both work with an expert to analyse the game. eg john motson with lawrensen/bright (if you can call them experts but wont get into that). Jesse May on the poker million with channing/brindley etc.

margatemaf

i personally think this has turned out to be a fantastic thread after the early bits of "aggro" shall we say. Differing opinions and all respectfully observed and respectfully replied to too!!! thats what makes us no 1 in my opinion and why i would defend this site to the hilt!! i have been on forums where the mods just fail to keep up as the users are just blatantly taking the mick and just think they are in a school yard and if they shout the loudest no one will reply!

Also i think "THE CHAMP" &  Tallboy make superb replies, "the champ" for pointing out doing 4 hrs live TV is not an easy thing to do an we as viewers take it for granted that it's an easy job because we're just sat on our preverbials watching while they do the work and tallboy's comment about james being intelligent with a great sense of humor to be on the button as well!! he looked after me well when i was a guest on the show and i echo the sentiment that i'd buy him a pint too!!

LONGPLAY

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued) : Have you seen Jesse May's Poker CV?
Posted by Tikay10

jesse may is a commentator.

Tikay10

Top Post Maf.

Just one thing - when you refer to "The Champ" - who do you mean? Sarah Champion? Lisa? Horatio? Me?

margatemaf

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Top Post Maf. Just one thing - when you refer to "The Champ" - who do you mean? Sarah Champion? Lisa? Horatio? Me?
Posted by Tikay10

ty boss! you know who "THE CHAMP" is!! There's only one "THE CHAMP" on this forum and that's rich ( soon to be poker superstar ) Orford!!

IRISHROVER

i must say well done to skypoker for letting this mmmmmmm  guy have his minute of stardom,

but i must say no need to put a presenter in this position ,

i consider it a  very low , cheap shot ,

and you have shown yourself to be not a very nice person of little manner,

it seems by all these posts have 1 thing in common  ,

that is you are the annoying one not james.

J-Hartigan

OMG!

Two threads!

Am I REALLY worthy of TWO threads...?

Actually, some members of the forum have provided some really useful feedback...

I should be less critical and more understanding of the players.  Studio analysis is based on half-information.  Yes, we can see all the hole cards, but we don't know the history of the table: e.g. what reads the players have on each other; whether someone's playing cautiously because they've just been moved to the table.

And, while I look at the game from a certain perspective, I will acknowledge different styles of play without berating them like the over-excited lagtard I am!

Hopefully, in time, I can restore peace and joy to the world of Sky Poker :-)

Tikay10

Another great & most dignified response James. I'm proud of you, & I'm proud of the way the guys rallied to your defence.

Hard to explain, though.

darich

If everyone had the same style of playing or analysing it'd be boring. Fwiw I quite like James' matter of fact spade calling spade type of analysis - slightly Dr Tom esque - you can be too soft on "poor"play as well imo. Skypoker is educational - you won't learn from your mistakes if they are never pointed out. Keep up the good work!

margatemaf

In Response to Re: so embarassing... (rant continued):

Another great & most dignified response James. I'm proud of you, & I'm proud of the way the guys rallied to your defence. Hard to explain, though.
Posted by Tikay10

Boss!! did you have doubts about that????? ..... not good should hang ya head shame lol

chackwow

i havent read the whole thread . but surly this isnt the conduct of a TPer to critisize presenters / or even a show that could be sponsoring him ?????

hurst05

lol at this thread i never saw it before, still over 4 months ago tbh