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Horrid spot
I find myself putting players on hands and still calling them down when there hands go ahead.
Ok player hasn't 3 bet any hands so far, and shows ultra stregth here for the first time. I immediately put him on AA KK QQ JJ or maybe AK . The flop comes and I instantly put myself behind because of the size of his c-bet, I would expect aces or kings to bet bigger to find out where they are.
Can I fold this flop??? I really want to!
For what it is worth, this hand isn't straight forward and holds a suprise at the end!
Ok player hasn't 3 bet any hands so far, and shows ultra stregth here for the first time. I immediately put him on AA KK QQ JJ or maybe AK . The flop comes and I instantly put myself behind because of the size of his c-bet, I would expect aces or kings to bet bigger to find out where they are.
Can I fold this flop??? I really want to!
For what it is worth, this hand isn't straight forward and holds a suprise at the end!
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| PokerSmith | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £4.61 | |
| joey690 | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £11.26 | |
| Hurley00 | Sit out | ||||
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| trixie06 | Fold | ||||
| Lady666 | Fold | ||||
| Batkin88 | Raise | £0.40 | £0.55 | £17.33 | |
| PokerSmith | Call | £0.35 | £0.90 | £4.26 | |
| joey690 | Raise | £1.20 | £2.10 | £10.06 | |
| Batkin88 | Call | £0.90 | £3.00 | £16.43 | |
| PokerSmith | Fold | ||||
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| joey690 | Bet | £1.10 | £4.10 | £8.96 | |
| Batkin88 | |||||
Comments
I also don't like 4 betting to get it in pre, prefer playing the streets.
As played call on the flop now and reassess on the turn. They are leading with plenty of air, under pairs and value hands such as AJ, KJ which we beat. I don't see too much value in raising the flop however.
Anyway the turn comes and this happens, bear in mind I think I am behind here is it ok to check it back with then intention of betting the river if he checks it to me or calling a small bet if it doesn't look to fishy?
The river comes and he bets into me, the size looks like he missed value on the turn and was betting right at the top of his value betting amount for max value. Now can I fold?
Ok right, I am still learning cash so KK all in pre is good lol (My reasoning behind not getting it in pre is because he is only coming back over the top with QQ KK or AA so it is 50/50
You should maybe look at this way of thinking. Like TommyD said his range isn't that tight.
You want to get as much of their stack in pre, so that they will stack off lighter postflop. Do you think he will fold 99-JJ pre flop to a small 4b?? Probably not. However if you don't 4b you are allowing him to make a fold post flop with these hands.
You have to give a bad opponent the chance to make mistakes, by just calling you are taking away another decision from him- you are pot controlling on his behalf. The deception gained isnt as valuable as the fact he will stack off alot lighter the more he has invested pre.
maybe snap
I think r/f is just folding out too much, we've played it passive by flatting the 3bet and as such have under repped our hand. They may barrel with air on turn and/or river, it's an ok board to barrell after making a 3bet. I think I'm firmly behind calling after our action preflop.
Also as played Im snapping the river.
Also with regard to 'under reppping' our hand, at what point is it advisable to stop under repping it. I mean you end up just levelling yourself into bad calls. Reason i think r/f is a viable play is because it's less exploitable.
-If he jams flop back we can make the ez fold
- If he just calls and wants to put money in on later streets we know he has it a huge %
-If he just calls and looks to check it down we can then probly check it down or re evaluate river to see if we can squeze some thin value.
Regarding under repping, we're pretty much stuck doing this all the way down in this spot. By flatting the 3bet from the button we have taken away the frequency of us having the very top of our range unless we never 4bet. However if we start raising on this board we are over repping (Qx+) and therefore turning our hand into a bluff.
EDIT
If we do start raising we could be doing it as a merge, trying to represent a polarised range of Q+ or air while actually having something in the middle. In this we may get calls from anything between pocket tens and pocket aces (against a polarised range these would effectively be the same hand). I would only do this on the river really, it's also pretty tricky stuff and I'm sure much better players than me could explain it in a much more comprehensive manner.
If you call and re-assess if he fires again, what exactly are you re-assessing?? You are in exaclty the same spot if he leads turn or river but the pot is bigger.
Raising the flop makes it very hard for him to get any value on later streets if he's ahead, although you sacrifice shutting out all his bluffs (of which there aren't many imo). Thats why i advocate it.
For example - It's the same concept of raising with KK from the BB when somebody has limp called MP and the flop coming A 9 3. Now do you lead knowing you are rarely getting called by worse. Or do you just check and risk being exploited. I'd tend to just lead anyway as it makes the hand more easily playable, by checking we are putting ourselves in spots on later streets that might cause us to make more costly mistakes.
That's another reason in batkins hand i prefer to raise flop as we simply make it impossible to make a big mistake for our stack down the streets.
Maybe this is over thinking it i don't know, your the one whos rich from poker
On the river with the amount he has bet surely it's an easy call?
We are assessing what turn card comes in (Is it a scare card for me/him/both ranges? Does it complete a draw? Does it create a draw? Is it a total brick?) and how he reacts to it (does he bet? What is his sizing? How those this match up to our history?)
I've got tons more on this hand to say but I've got the builders in at the moment. Enjoying this one.
I am sure raising folds out all hands you get value from
just seen your edit Tommy that is an overlap and important with regard to my prior response..
-fold my air or underpairs and any J worse than A J. would consider folding oesd's for reverse implied odds
Call- basically never - some Q's depending on opponent
raise- all overpairs, AJ, Q's.
If he jams flop i call with a Q and lay the rest.
If he just calls and puts any more money in i will prob fold all but Q's.
If he calls and checks turn and riv i will v/bet overpairs and Q's.
This is obv a basic way of looking at it and there are many other nuances involved. But as a rule of thumb i think this is the best way of playing this spot.
Ok, the only problem I have with this and maybe you can set me straight.
If we merge and raise flop then what are we looking to get paid by. Meaning what does oppo put us on in order for oppo to pay us off.
Surely oppo has to put us on a wider range that what you suggest that would include bluffs. Are you suggesting we merge just the top-middle of our range that still beats oppos middle range.
What hands call our raise that we beat, draws, Jx.
Essentially when we raise flop what hands can we hold that oppo still thinks they beat. For this reason surely we would have to merge in raising with bottom of our range such as draws/bluffs some of the time so oppo thinks they can still be good here.
I really wanted to fold every street but wasn't good enough to find it, this is exactly the same as last night when I had AK and flop came out 3 7 K and I nearly folded flop only for him to turn over aces. My kings in theis hand are bluff catchers as played, so getting it in pre would make sense and save me all of this thinking.
Anyway here is the hand
Well they let you lose the minimum
If your perceived range has bluffs, but your actual range has value only, then that's how you win money.
Of course you don't want to actually hold your perceived range you just want to be aware of it. If you play to your perceived range then you are easy to play against, you have to skew it in these spots to get the better of oppo.
I see it like this - assuming this is a thinking player - and most importantly he HAS to have a tight 3bet range.
Oppo thinks we are polarised to nut / air hands when we raise flop. Therefore he thinks he can continue with his mid strength hands, and just c/c to bluff catch and pot control.
Given that oppo's entire range (excluding JJ or any Q) has showdown value against our air, he has no need to rebluff this spot. If he decides we are bluffing, surely he should be just calling and keeping the bluffs in our range. Therefore if he calls the flop raise, he can only put more money in with a set, and will only cc/c - bluff catch with the rest of his range.
So our raise on flop gives the illusion of polarising our range, the result being that it restricts the villains play on later streets and makes his hand extremely transparent.
Love the way the this post reads, all good
but
regarding the highlighted bit
my thinking is how we do create a perceived range if we don't ever raise with air/draws sometimes
is it enough here to r/f with KK to create a perceived range that includes draws/bluffs
seems to be a total flaw if we do not have a pereived range that includes air/draws
"o this guy always turns over mid-top of range, never seem oppo bluff or semi bluff in these spots"
= ez fold
u see what I am trying to put across