Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?

DOHHHHHHH

1 previous hand with villain from this session, he stacked me.

He opens utg+1, I 3b from sb with 9d9h and he calls.

I lead Kh Kd Jh flop 4 in to 6.90 and he snap makes it 11.

I tank, shove, and he calls.

He has Th7h and gets there.

------------------------------------

From the hand above I decided he must be quite spazzy and reluctant to fold pre flop. So decided to 3b quite big, and check back the flop thinking I'm most likely way ahead but could be miles behind if he's got lucky. Thought checking back would be the best way to get max value the times I'm ahead.

Turn looks a no brainer.

And river is an easy call as played righhht?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
bromley04	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£31.77
xxx	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£52.62
	Your hole cards	A A
westslay23	Fold
omgffsgfy	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£1.20	£1.65	£38.65
bromley04	Fold
xxx	Raise		£2.70	£4.35	£49.92
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£6.30	£10.65	£32.35
xxx	Call		£4.50	£15.15	£45.42
Flop
		J J 7
xxx	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Check
Turn
		K
xxx	Bet		£7.58	£22.73	£37.84
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£7.58	£30.31	£24.77
River
		7
xxx	All-in		£37.84	£68.15	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH

IDONKCALLU

no lol i cant see anything what u are beating i would always c-bet the fop aswell 

beaneh

don't 3bet the flop with 99 on KKJ lol

4bet smaller pre bet flop small, deffo call river lol

beaneh

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

no lol i cant see anything what u are beating i would always c-bet the fop aswell 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

what are we losing to? JJ/AJ/KK/77?

percival09

easy call as played. I'd bet flop

rancid

like the check on flop & snap river because we check flop )

but yeah sigh J10 ALL DAY !

IDONKCALLU

this is a mad call what his the guy going all in with not ak is it obv he has aj or some kind of jack what is the opponent jamming river with i might be bad but im never calling

grantorino

Bet flop, call river

No idea why you 3b flop in prev hand

Curt360x27

Bet flop, check back turn, call river or Vbet if checked to.

andybeth

This is probs nitty but I'm folding this river bet. I just don;t know what our opponent bets this strongly with that we're beating. Can't see him going this mad with ak on the river, but that's the only hand we beat expect bluffs.. I just think they show a Jack so often if you call. If you did  call, I hope you won 

IDONKCALLU

+1 to andybeth here 

Lambert180

How many Jx hands 3bet pre AND call a 4bet? probably JJ (sometimes) and that's it. I'd say it's unlikely he has a J here.

I'd call.

andybeth

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

How many Jx hands 3bet pre AND call a 4bet? probably JJ (sometimes) and that's it. I'd say it's unlikely he has a J here. I'd call.
Posted by Lambert180

Bare in mind this player was peeling 3 bets with 10 7s earlier. Spewy loose players will overvalue AJ, KJ and QJ and ignore the fact they've been 4 bet, they just see their 2 cards, and thats it

IDONKCALLU

saying that i cant see any 1 shove on a 2pair boared with ak maybe but cant see it so its a bluff or nuts and i think he has a jack but knowing this post dohhhhh made the call and he had nowt

DOHHHHHHH

Ha donk I'm not posting brags I've put about 8 hands up today and in 6/7 of em I've been slaughtered and/or lost the pot. 

Some have implied image value too obv but not this 1 as I have aces & think it's quite standard just making sure! 

Don't really understand why betting this flop is better than checking though, it's still easy to get stacks in by the river and there are zero turn scare cards. Also got position. Thought it was an easy check.

percival09

you'd bet a bluff right

percival09

checking kinda gives away you have a hand. Which I guess means villain is less likely to be bluffing. But Idk villain. I still call

rancid

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

checking kinda gives away you have a hand. Which I guess means villain is less likely to be bluffing. But Idk villain. I still call
Posted by percival09

Not really, not on this flop - you want oppo to over value their hand rarther than scare em off surely
think on paired flops your checking range can be quite wide

NColley

if someone checks in position on a dry flop in a 4 bet pot, it's virtually always KK/AA

AMYBR

In Response to Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

1 previous hand with villain from this session, he stacked me. He opens utg+1, I 3b from sb with 9d9h and he calls. I lead Kh Kd Jh flop 4 in to 6.90 and he snap makes it 11. I tank, shove, and he calls. He has Th7h and gets there. ------------------------------------ From the hand above I decided he must be quite spazzy and reluctant to fold pre flop. So decided to 3b quite big, and check back the flop thinking I'm most likely way ahead but could be miles behind if he's got lucky. Thought checking back would be the best way to get max value the times I'm ahead. Turn looks a no brainer. And river is an easy call as played righhht? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance bromley04 Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £31.77 xxx  Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £52.62   Your hole cards A A       westslay23 Fold         omgffsgfy Fold         DOHHHHHHH Raise   £1.20 £1.65 £38.65 bromley04 Fold         xxx  Raise   £2.70 £4.35 £49.92 DOHHHHHHH Raise   £6.30 £10.65 £32.35 xxx Call   £4.50 £15.15 £45.42 Flop     J J 7       xxx  Check         DOHHHHHHH Check         Turn     K       xxx Bet   £7.58 £22.73 £37.84 DOHHHHHHH Call   £7.58 £30.31 £24.77 River     7       xxx  All-in   £37.84 £68.15 £0.00 DOHHHHHHH
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Just for simplicity only read OP.

Basically reads we have are he flats 3bet with 1 high vs 9s and gets there on KKj board (making a 10?).

I make it bigger pre, especially as we know he peels light.  But I likely fold to the ship.

Donks running good ftw

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

This is probs nitty but I'm folding this river bet. I just don;t know what our opponent bets this strongly with that we're beating. Can't see him going this mad with ak on the river, but that's the only hand we beat expect bluffs.. I just think they show a Jack so often if you call. If you did  call, I hope you won 
Posted by andybeth

Once we check flop we should be calling the river 100% of the time. We check the flop to induce this sort of action from bluffs or over valued hands not for pot control with the intention of folding on a later street if we are forced into playing for stacks. 

rancid

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

if someone checks in position on a dry flop in a 4 bet pot, it's virtually always KK/AA
Posted by NColley

probabaly but versus this oppo checking is the best option even though it's 4 bet pre imo
oppo is peeling pre light or trapping so why is betting the better option
oppo could also bluff turn
AK/middle pairs + bluffs can exist in hero's range so checking flop and delayed c bet on turn is still a viable route
Should we always bet flop if we 4 bet pre and get peeled, if Dohhhh has AK + bluffs here then if we get called we are always behind, likewise if oppo peels light then AK is still ahead of that range and betting only folds out worse

So while checking seems polarised, likewise betting is too espcially on paired flops
Are paired flops ever good to c bet on with whole range, when your getting called the majority of the time espcially in 3/4 bet pots

Suppose it depends on what our perceived checking range is on the flop, is it always weak or stroung or can we still hold middle range

my thinking maybe a little skewed here but the basiscs in my head are if your WAWB then check

grantorino

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes? : probabaly but versus this oppo checking is the best option even though it's 4 bet pre imo oppo is peeling pre light or trapping so why is betting the better option oppo could also bluff turn AK/middle pairs + bluffs can exist in hero's range so checking flop and delayed c bet on turn is still a viable route Should we always bet flop if we 4 bet pre and get peeled, if Dohhhh has AK + bluffs here then if we get called we are always behind, likewise if oppo peels light then AK is still ahead of that range and betting only folds out worse So while checking seems polarised, likewise betting is too espcially on paired flops Are paired flops ever good to c bet on with whole range, when your getting called the majority of the time espcially in 3/4 bet pots Suppose it depends on what our perceived checking range is on the flop, is it always weak or stroung or can we still hold middle range my thinking maybe a little skewed here but the basiscs in my head are if your WAWB then check
Posted by rancid

Bold 1. This is why you bet

Bold 2 . no

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes? : probabaly but versus this oppo checking is the best option even though it's 4 bet pre imo oppo is peeling pre light or trapping so why is betting the better option oppo could also bluff turn AK/middle pairs + bluffs can exist in hero's range so checking flop and delayed c bet on turn is still a viable route Should we always bet flop if we 4 bet pre and get peeled, if Dohhhh has AK + bluffs here then if we get called we are always behind, likewise if oppo peels light then AK is still ahead of that range and betting only folds out worse So while checking seems polarised, likewise betting is too espcially on paired flops Are paired flops ever good to c bet on with whole range, when your getting called the majority of the time espcially in 3/4 bet pots Suppose it depends on what our perceived checking range is on the flop, is it always weak or stroung or can we still hold middle range my thinking maybe a little skewed here but the basiscs in my head are if your WAWB then check
Posted by rancid

This is what I thought/think also............

pr1nnyraid

Can people stop giving absolutely no credit to oppo's just because we don't know them. Given how 'experimental' dohhhh seems to be playing..
HAND 1:
The peel with 10 7hh oop is questionable but that is an okay flop to c/r Vs Dohhh and he should have taken it down there if dohhhh hadnt shoved 99 back (??), once he c/r to 11 he cant pass the fd. So i'm giving this guy at least a bit of competency even if his pre flop ranges are choppy / wide.

I think c-bet here. Let's him make get it in with 88+ on the flop. It's pretty transparent checking back in a 4b pot like Ncolley says.

I think the K turn is the card that makes this river a fold.. I think villain will be putting you on a range of 1010-AA & AK & any jacks when you check back the flop.

When the K hits the turn i think it is unlikely for him to try and rep AK to make you fold your range, even more so i dont think AK would play like this on the river. Looks to me like he wants you to stack off with AK/ AA. Also given we already established his pre flop range is wide then alot of Jacks do pop up here often.
Don't think this is a call. I'd prefer to pot control on later streets not the flop.

I get the whole, we check back flop to induce / get value from worse. But it's stupid trying to 'under rep' our hand once we 4bet pre, makes no sense and is very transparent.

I'm suprised at some players here who say you sanp fold AA to 1 raise on a 10 7 4 flop in another thread, yet this is a snap call? Can't afford to stack off this easily imo.

Random guess at his exact hand: KK.

LOL_RAISE

b/c flop  about 1/3rd pot.

i wouldnt fold river, we have top 2 pairs!

DOHHHHHHH

The 99 hand I dunno what he'd raise the KKJhh board with other than a draw or a bluff, I can beat them both.

I can't flat his raise OOP because I'll have to c/f loads of turns so just went for it.

Should have folded though because the turn and river were both hearts  

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

The 99 hand I dunno what he'd raise the KKJhh board with other than a draw or a bluff, I can beat them both. I can't flat his raise OOP because I'll have to c/f loads of turns so just went for it. Should have folded though because the turn and river were both hearts  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I think that's the problem

yb

when you check the flop do you ever have a bluff?

DOHHHHHHH

Yes I think so, I never really know what I'm gonna do tbh but I can bluff the turn if he checks again and I got no value hand/sd value. 

edit* - Only been playing this V about 20 mins, on 1 table. He's not on any of my other 4/5, so even if he is thinking about my hands he wont have much info to use. None in 4b pots.

percival09

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes?:

In Response to Re: Final hand, thoughts on my line? Snap call river yes? : Not really, not on this flop - you want oppo to over value their hand rarther than scare em off surely think on paired flops your checking range can be quite wide
Posted by rancid

yeah but most players in this spot are gonna be betting their bluffs. So you need to bet your made hands too. If i was villain and hero checked flop here, I'd know he has a hand and that he's not gonna fold to any turn or river bet with the pot as it is